[justonenote]

That really depends on what type of work you are doing and your specific combo of hardware. And yes you can do work, but when sleep and power management doesn't work it's a significant QoL downgrade.

If you want to use CUDA as a simple example, you'll have to go through the process of using nvidia proprietary drivers and I'm far from well versed on it but that gives me random warnings and I don't quite get the compatibility between it and Xorg/Wayland or which combo to use and I have on more than one laptop ended up with a system that works but that the desktop randomly freezes requiring a hard reboot.

I still do use Linux Desktop and try various different Debian based or Fedora distros out but you definitely do end up tinkering. I don't use MacOS fwiw.

[ActorNightly]

The only issue that I have ever had with drivers is when the ubuntu automatic install defaulted to the latest open source ones which weren't being recognized.

For a whole bunch of other installations, following official linux instructions on Nvidia works incredibly well. Im probably up to like 30 installs of linux mint on laptops and desktops, without issues. I had a personal laptop with manjaro that suppored nvidia prime, I didn't even have to do anything special, just installed nvidia-smi, and prime-run worked out of the box.

And generally, for equal comparison, I wouldn't consider laptops with discrete graphics to be in the same family as more business oriented Macs, the more apt comparison would be those with AMD chips with integrated video drivers, for which you don't need to fuck with any drivers.

[justonenote]

I don't know maybe I've just been unlucky, but at least for me on a couple of different laptops I regularly get full desktop freezes on Debian & Fedora from using things like VMs / GPU accelerated browser (Chrome) / Other things (I don't actually use CUDA/AI much at all but I suspect the issues come from sharing of GPU resources across apps, could be wrong)

This doesn't happen on Windows nearly as much on the same laptops, I don't use Macs that much. And yes I agree it does seem more of an issue with laptops with discrete graphics.

I do still use Linux desktop a lot, I'm happy to take the trade-off but my point was just that depending on the work you do, or the features of the laptop you want to use, like power mgmt or bluetooth, there will be tinkering. (and yes this is entirely manufacturers fault)

[fsflover]

> a couple of different laptops

Just like with Mac and Windows, you should buy a laptop with preinstalled Linux to avoid hardware problems. Even suspend is flawless on my Librem 14.

[godelski]

  > If you want to use CUDA as a simple example,

When was the last time you tried this?

If your "CUDA" needs are pytorch, tensorflow, whatever, pip install (or uv pip install) and you're good to go.

When was the last time you even needed to? If you need to do actual kernel writing and thus actually need CUDA (this is pretty uncommon and I think most people that do that wouldn't be asking this question), then most of the issues are not actually issues.

I'll give an example of my latest CUDA error. I run EndeavourOS (Arch based) and so yes, using bleeding edge drivers. Did an update, reboot, oh no... I get to lock screen, login and black screen (but cursor).[0] What's the solution? Roll back cuda. Didn't work? Roll back kernel. Now it works. The problem? nvidia-560-35.03-9 was incompatible with kernel 6.11. I even was able to find in the forums (quickly) the exact issue[1].

But why am I saying this is no biggie? Well... I'm fucking running 560 drivers, which are beta. If you worry about these issues, don't. If you don't want that power, don't run Arch, Gentoo, or other bleeding edges. You know the most confusing part of this all? Was people posting their driver versions with `inxi -G` and so you only see `560.35.03` but I had to roll back `560.35.03-9` to `560.35.03-6`. But also, Nvidia could be better about their namings.

I will also concede that there is a lot of shit information out there and actually parsing what the real answers are takes experience. So here's my advice when you run into your next issue:

  Getting Information:
  - Start with journalctl and dmesg (try `journalctl -b -p 3` and `dmesg -L -l "err+"`. `-b` is only messages since last boot and the other flags are to only give you errors or worse). These are your "logs" 
    - There are others, and they *should* go under `/var/log` but just like in OSX how random junk goes to {~,/}Library/{Caches,Application Support}
    - Check versions, especially if you did an update
      - (side note): For all those confused where files should go, try `man hier`
  - Good chance you can get through by reading the man page, but this doesn't always apply 
    - also remember you can do `man 7 man` or `man man.7` (replace second man with any command). Also see `man -a man`
    - Don't know what man page you need? Try `man --regex cuda`
  - Visit the Arch Wiki (even if you're not on Arch) -- maybe even the Gentoo Wiki. RedHat docs are also pretty good
    - After that, try your distro's (or their parent's) forums.
      - Archwiki is good, Arch forums are a toxic hellhole occupied by people who's idea of grass is entirely contrived from what is visible on a screen. Use the forums of the children. I'm sorry to those who've experienced that place.
  - Then try Google, focusing on things from your logs. This would be up higher, but you can put quotes around things or dates and Google will outright disrespect you now)
    - If it is a specific program that looks to be the issue, try the Git{Hub,Lab} issues page too. Feel free to open an issue. Most devs are pretty nice, even to noobs, though there are also many who will insinuate you RTFM after quoting and linking to it. I'm also sorry about this.

  Solving issues:
  - First try rolling back. If you're not messing with your system, this can make most problems go away VERY quickly. 
    - If you're on a rolling release distro (like Arch) then this is your goto. Unless you like problem solving. But then why are you on Arch? 
    - With `pacman` this can usually be done quickly with `pacman -U file:///var/cache/pacman/pkg/thing-you-want`. You can use other tools, but this is good to know, and you know where things cache :) (`downgrade` is the common tool but it just does this) You can even do kernels this way!
    - Things like `timeshift` are useful (and the `pacman` or `apt` "autosnap"). But beware if you aren't using `grub` to just not do that option. Also check out `btrfs`
    - If need to reinstall an old kernel and it isn't in your cache check out the command `reinstall-kernels` (try `cat /usr/bin/reinstall-kernels`). This is a uncommon task and might only be because you've filled up `/efi` and deleted a kernel.
  - Stop fucking with the kernel if you don't know what you're doing. 99% of the time this is ***NOT*** the solution[2]
    - For nvidia you might want `nvidia_dr.modeset=1` and ***maybe*** (probably not) `nvidia_drm.fbdev=1`
  - Use `find` and `grep`.
    - I'm not joking, `find` is a crazy powerful tool and people sleep on it. (Seriously, how do people jump into large codebases blind and get running without `find`, `grep`, `awk`, and such tools?)[3]

But honestly, you'll need to do none of this stuff if you're on a "baby" distro. I very much welcome people to become more experienced at linux but not everyone needs to be and there's no issue with using a distro that holds your hand (OSX and Windows do). But I would strongly encourage any programmer (not just linux users) to become more familiar with the cli. There's an investment cost, but you'll reap >10x rewards from these efforts, even in general programming situations.

[0] For the fun of it, I asked GPT and gave it logs from journal and dmesg, it did not get the answer, and listening to it would have sent me down a rabbit hole where I'd be messing with the kernel (I use systemd and dracut, these were communicated to GPT and it was asking me to run mkinitcpio and mess with grub lol)

[1] https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/only-black-screen-after-logi...

And hey look, an update: https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/attention-nvidia-gpu-driver-...

[2] For me `/etc/kernel/cmdline` looks pretty much like `nvme_load=YES nowatchdog rw root=UUID=<that> resume=UUID=<blahh> nvidia_drm.modeset=1 nvidia_drm.fbdev=1` It should be short

[3] Here's a free one for you. Got a python project and you forgot to place `__init__.py` in the folders? `find src -type d -exec touch "{}/__init__.py" \;` (replace `src` with your root source directory)

[justonenote]

Sorry what??

Are you trying to refute my point that you end up tinkering if you are using Linux as a desktop?

I don't want to run bleeding edge, I don't want to compile my OS from source, I did with slackware as a teenager, I just want to play around with SD and other AI models without it causing me to end up with my laptop randomly freezing to a hard reboot until I go down a rabbit hole of driver/kernel/window manger combos.

If I want to do it on Windows it works and I don't get random hard freezes. Trust me I'd prefer to use Linux and do quite a lot but I really don't think you are refuting the point of 'you need to tinker a lot on Linux' with your post.

[godelski]

  > Are you trying to refute my point that you end up tinkering if you are using Linux as a desktop?

Yes and no. Most of my point was about if you're on a tinkering distro like Arch (which the OP is). If you're on Ubuntu, Pop, Mint, or similar you can just not tinker and be totally fine. I did add too much about how to actually problem solve on linux because a lot of people go to the wrong sources and that's one of the biggest barriers to entry (and my frustration with Google).

  > I don't want to run bleeding edge, I don't want to compile my OS from source, I did with slackware as a teenager, I just want to play around with SD and other AI models without it causing me to end up with my laptop randomly freezing to a hard reboot until I go down a rabbit hole of driver/kernel/window manger combos.

Use Pop_OS. You do not need to tinker. Things should work just as smoothly as Windows.

I'm not sure how old you are, but if "teenager" is 19 and you're even just 25, the landscape is completely different. Honestly, I think that's probably a true statement if we're talking about even a 3 year difference.