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What you tax is not really relevant as long as it doesn't disrupt some activity you want to continue happening. If it was up to me I'd tax spending not income. Regardless of what you are spending on. Bread? Sure! Employee? Yes! 10% of Tesla? Same!

> If it was up to me I'd tax spending not income. Regardless of what you are spending on

Under this system the poor who spend the majority of their income just to survive pay the highest effective tax rate while the wealthier who save most of their income have the smallest effective tax rate. That sounds like a fair and equitable system to you?

orionsbelt 610 days ago

Sure, you can have transfers back to the poor.

You're just moving the point a little along the scale though. So now instead of the super poor paying a higher rate, now it's the slightly less poor. And the slightly less poor as you keep moving that transfer cutoff point. You're still going to have some point where the wealthier are paying a significantly lower rate than those who make a good bit less than them.

At appropriate level of transfers the cutoff point is at millionaires you no longer can call poor in good conscience.

And people below cutoff point thanks to transfer effectively pay negative tax.

I absolutely agree on this point, and that curve adjustment would just continue into people we'd definitely agree are wealthy. But in the end those millionaires are paying a higher tax rate than those wealthier than them. Is that fair?

And yet the rich spend vastly more money than poor. You can see it trivially by noticing that the poor have all their money from the work that they do for the rich.

Taxing spending would be way more equitable than whatever we are now doing.

We are already doing some taxation of spending. VAT, sales tax, social security fees. All of those are paid by buyers of goods, services and labor. If we did the same for investments government would have so much more money to deal with the problems instead of borrowing it from commercial banks at interest.

> And yet the rich spend vastly more money than poor

You're just totally ignoring the effect of effective tax rates.

Sure, the billionaire spent way more money than the poor person. But who spent a higher percentage of their income? And who had vastly more opportunity to spend that in a place outside of that sales tax jurisdiction? Are the poor people flying to other countries to buy their luxury goods?

To you, is society fairer for poor person and the billionaire to pay the same nominal amount or the same tax rate? Is it even fair/good for the poor and the wealthy to pay the same for either of these values?

> But who spent a higher percentage of their income?

Everybody knows. That's because we tax income. And income, unlike spending is easier to muddle. You can always fabricate a loss or at least a temporary loss to avoid paying taxes on your income. It's harder to hide spending.

> And who had vastly more opportunity to spend that in a place outside of that sales tax jurisdiction?

It's just as easy today to move your profits to another country if you are rich.

If you tax spending, you can just tax money transfers to other countries as spending. Rich can fly wherever they like but they still had to pay taxes on the plane they bought, fuel they put in and all the money they spent on their trip.They could buy crypto, but guess what, on crypto purchase, also a spending tax. They can even move to live in another country till they die, but still their money transfered outside of their home country into their new one, taxed on exit.

You brought the money into the country because you are in the business of exports? Great, here's a tax credit. You may deduct it from the tax you pay on your excursions abroad.

The problem is not what is the moral thing to tax. The problem is how to do it efficiently with no loopholes without affecting desirable behaviors negatively and promoting undesirable ones.

Taxing spending would also help with vast empires that cosist of inherited money. Income was already done, century ago so there's nothing to tax. If you try to tax wealth, so many people would equate it to theft. But if you tax spending ...

> Taxing spending would also help with vast empires that cosist of inherited money

Or we just finally actually tax inherited wealth like other kinds of income instead of giving wealthy many many millions of handouts and tax subsidies.

> with no loopholes

We've both shared examples of lots of ways one can have loopholes on spending money. If the standard is to find a way of "no loopholes", well, spending money outside of the tax jurisdiction away from the knowledge of the tax jurisdiction is a loophole. One wealthier people will have a far easier time exploiting than the poor. Expecting the wealthy are going to report their sales taxes on goods purchased overseas is as hopeful as back in the day states hoping people would report their online purchases. We both agree there's countless ways to obscure your income, if they can obscure their income why is it now impossible for them to obscure their purchases?

> You brought the money into the country because you are in the business of exports? Great, here's a tax credit. You may deduct it from the tax you pay on your excursions abroad.

So those who make money on exports pay even lower tax rates than those working domestically, by design? And who in that "business of exports" actually gets that benefit? The shift worker in the factory making the widgets, the marketing director making the campaign for the widget overseas, the salesperson making the actual sale to the foreign distributor, or the owner of the corporation? Me thinks that benefit isn't going to the shift worker or the marketing person or the salesperson. Cool, even more handouts for the wealthy here. Great ideas. They'll get a tax break on their expensive foreign vacation while us plebs here pay full tax rates.

I'm not trying to make the argument that what we have today is good. There's so much wrong with it. But thinking that throwing it all away and just taxing spending is somehow itself a good and just way of doing it also doesn't make much sense to me. Having poorer people pay more effective tax rates than wealthier people doesn't strike me as fair.