[vel0city]

> If it was up to me I'd tax spending not income. Regardless of what you are spending on

Under this system the poor who spend the majority of their income just to survive pay the highest effective tax rate while the wealthier who save most of their income have the smallest effective tax rate. That sounds like a fair and equitable system to you?

[orionsbelt]

Sure, you can have transfers back to the poor.

[vel0city]

You're just moving the point a little along the scale though. So now instead of the super poor paying a higher rate, now it's the slightly less poor. And the slightly less poor as you keep moving that transfer cutoff point. You're still going to have some point where the wealthier are paying a significantly lower rate than those who make a good bit less than them.

[scotty79]

At appropriate level of transfers the cutoff point is at millionaires you no longer can call poor in good conscience.

And people below cutoff point thanks to transfer effectively pay negative tax.

[vel0city]

I absolutely agree on this point, and that curve adjustment would just continue into people we'd definitely agree are wealthy. But in the end those millionaires are paying a higher tax rate than those wealthier than them. Is that fair?

[scotty79]

It's fairer than what we have today. Nothing is absolutely fair.

[scotty79]

And yet the rich spend vastly more money than poor. You can see it trivially by noticing that the poor have all their money from the work that they do for the rich.

Taxing spending would be way more equitable than whatever we are now doing.

We are already doing some taxation of spending. VAT, sales tax, social security fees. All of those are paid by buyers of goods, services and labor. If we did the same for investments government would have so much more money to deal with the problems instead of borrowing it from commercial banks at interest.

[vel0city]

> And yet the rich spend vastly more money than poor

You're just totally ignoring the effect of effective tax rates.

Sure, the billionaire spent way more money than the poor person. But who spent a higher percentage of their income? And who had vastly more opportunity to spend that in a place outside of that sales tax jurisdiction? Are the poor people flying to other countries to buy their luxury goods?

To you, is society fairer for poor person and the billionaire to pay the same nominal amount or the same tax rate? Is it even fair/good for the poor and the wealthy to pay the same for either of these values?

[scotty79]

> But who spent a higher percentage of their income?

Everybody knows. That's because we tax income. And income, unlike spending is easier to muddle. You can always fabricate a loss or at least a temporary loss to avoid paying taxes on your income. It's harder to hide spending.

> And who had vastly more opportunity to spend that in a place outside of that sales tax jurisdiction?

It's just as easy today to move your profits to another country if you are rich.

If you tax spending, you can just tax money transfers to other countries as spending. Rich can fly wherever they like but they still had to pay taxes on the plane they bought, fuel they put in and all the money they spent on their trip.They could buy crypto, but guess what, on crypto purchase, also a spending tax. They can even move to live in another country till they die, but still their money transfered outside of their home country into their new one, taxed on exit.

You brought the money into the country because you are in the business of exports? Great, here's a tax credit. You may deduct it from the tax you pay on your excursions abroad.

The problem is not what is the moral thing to tax. The problem is how to do it efficiently with no loopholes without affecting desirable behaviors negatively and promoting undesirable ones.

Taxing spending would also help with vast empires that cosist of inherited money. Income was already done, century ago so there's nothing to tax. If you try to tax wealth, so many people would equate it to theft. But if you tax spending ...

[vel0city]

> Taxing spending would also help with vast empires that cosist of inherited money

Or we just finally actually tax inherited wealth like other kinds of income instead of giving wealthy many many millions of handouts and tax subsidies.

> with no loopholes

We've both shared examples of lots of ways one can have loopholes on spending money. If the standard is to find a way of "no loopholes", well, spending money outside of the tax jurisdiction away from the knowledge of the tax jurisdiction is a loophole. One wealthier people will have a far easier time exploiting than the poor. Expecting the wealthy are going to report their sales taxes on goods purchased overseas is as hopeful as back in the day states hoping people would report their online purchases. We both agree there's countless ways to obscure your income, if they can obscure their income why is it now impossible for them to obscure their purchases?

> You brought the money into the country because you are in the business of exports? Great, here's a tax credit. You may deduct it from the tax you pay on your excursions abroad.

So those who make money on exports pay even lower tax rates than those working domestically, by design? And who in that "business of exports" actually gets that benefit? The shift worker in the factory making the widgets, the marketing director making the campaign for the widget overseas, the salesperson making the actual sale to the foreign distributor, or the owner of the corporation? Me thinks that benefit isn't going to the shift worker or the marketing person or the salesperson. Cool, even more handouts for the wealthy here. Great ideas. They'll get a tax break on their expensive foreign vacation while us plebs here pay full tax rates.

I'm not trying to make the argument that what we have today is good. There's so much wrong with it. But thinking that throwing it all away and just taxing spending is somehow itself a good and just way of doing it also doesn't make much sense to me. Having poorer people pay more effective tax rates than wealthier people doesn't strike me as fair.

[scotty79]

> spending money outside of the tax jurisdiction away from the knowledge of the tax jurisdiction is a loophole.

Yeah, but how? How do you carry it or send it across the border? Cash? Gold? Good luck with that. You'd basically have to set up a smuggling operation for cash like people now do for drugs. With the risk of cash going missing and every step of the road. Becasue it's not hot and whoever steals it can use it as they please immediately.

> Expecting the wealthy are going to report their sales taxes on goods purchased overseas is as hopeful as back in the day states hoping people would report their online purchases.

I'm not expecting anyone to report that they bought something abroad. I expect their bank to to report they made a transfer abroad and deduct spending tax automatically.

> So those who make money on exports pay even lower tax rates than those working domestically, by design?

Yes, because exports are desirable for building wealth of a country. There's a single country on Earth that benefits from exporting not goods or services but dollars. That's because they are printing them for free and the world for one reason or another wants them. Any other country benefits from exports and it's an activity every government tries hard to promote to get purchasing power in the global economy for the stuff the country can't make themselves.

> And who in that "business of exports" actually gets that benefit?

That's the question. In case of VAT burden is transferred along the chain. In spending tax, tax credit could be similarily propagated. Everyone could have tax credit on their sales and tax to pay on their purchases. This already works for companies for purposes of VAT. All transactions between companies are tracked so purchases could be taxed and sellers can be taxcredited (the opposite of VAT). In case of individual people, they make many transactions that are not specifically linked to them (and we want to keep it that way for privacy). Their spending tax can be collected and paid by the companies that sell stuff directly to consumers. The tax credit for individuals could take a form of direct cash transfer from the governement budget to supplement their salary. There's of course incentive for this companies to not report their sales to customers and not pass the tax paid them by the consumers to the country budget. But that's the same thing as we have now that companies have incentive to hide sales income to not pay income tax on it so exisitng solutions to combat that should perform no worse than they do now (mystery customers, recipt lottery, comparing income+financing with spending).

Tax credit wouldn't be 100% of sales (because companies on average earn more than spend so they would never pay tax while operating normally) and transfers to individuals could be shaped freely. They could be associated with their salaries or not or a mixture of two. This way governement could very effectively promote specific economic activities with tax credits to companies and keep the poorest out of poverty with direct money transfers but also promote job seeking and career advancement by paying some addtional money to workers, less as their salary level approaches societally desired "middle class".

I don't have all the kinks ironed out. It's just an idea that I had about a month ago. I haven't written my own tax code. Yet. ;-)

> They'll get a tax break on their expensive foreign vacation while us plebs here pay full tax rates.

Well, if somebody operates a successful company, especially an exporter they should be rewarded. But the reward should be transparent and controlled and not up to their weaseling, tax dodging tax and fabricalting fictional losses. As you know they are already getting the handouts. If the system is tight and clean we can decide how much of a reward they actually deserve through a political process. I am aware that our political system is terrible for that, but it's terrible for what we have now too so that's beside the point.

The point of my idea is mostly to introduce transparency and control and vastly simplify and integrate the myriad of tax systems we use in parallel in one country. Income taxes, VAT, duty, social security, health premiums, captial gains tax, fuel tax, excise. All of that could be replaced with one framework of taxes on spending. This would also be good for migrating to economy that's not reliant on infinite growth because doing more with less would be promoted by the tax structure. You are taxed on what you use, you are 100% taxed on what you waste or consume.

> Having poorer people pay more effective tax rates than wealthier people doesn't strike me as fair.

That's not at all what I'm advocating for. Poor people mostly don't matter from tax perspective. If tax credit for them is set up in a way that they pay effectively very little or zero tax or even get money for nothing it wouldn't matter for the govermenet budget and there would be strong, popular opposition to lowering their tax credit as that would be direct hard cash on their accounts recieved every month. In modern system it's vastly easier to give tax cuts for the rich than for the poor and nearly impossible to give anything to the totally destitute.

[vel0city]

> I expect their bank to to report they made a transfer abroad and deduct spending tax automatically

So we're not taxing spending, we're taxing bank transfers as well. Maybe they just put it in a savings account overseas. Maybe they're paying off a loan for money sitting elsewhere. Who says it was a sale? Prove they bought something.

>> Having poorer people pay more effective tax rates than wealthier people doesn't strike me as fair.

> That's not at all what I'm advocating for.

But that is what you're advocating for, by pushing it to just an extremely complicated sales tax and complicated system of fractically more complicated credits for exports and subsidies for the poor to hopefully reduce their tax burdern and what not. Inherently the wealthy will spend a smaller percentage of their income. The wealthiest practically can't spend it as fast as they get it even flying private jets around the world, but tons of middle-class people seem to barely have anything in savings. You just keep ignoring it and offering half measures to address it.