[nickpp]

> convince you to buy stuff

Ever bought something you didn't actually want? Were you persuaded to want something? What was the exact mechanism? Were you lied to? "Made to" somehow?

> net positive for the world

How exactly do you find out what is "net positive for the world"? Who assigns the the values and who does the tallying?

[consteval]

> What was the exact mechanism?

We don't actually know, but we know it exists. Because otherwise people wouldn't bother paying for ads. Your average person can identify hundreds of brands instantly. What's the value of that? Billions? Trillions?

Certainly, when cigarettes and chewing tobacco were advertised most people did it. Granted, the addiction helps because you only need 1 successful conversion for a life-long customer.

Well, now very few people do that in the US. Without a shadow of a doubt in anyone's mind, the abolishment of those ads had something to do with it.

One of the most common fallacies I see is that choice is a binary. You either chose something, or you didn't. Meaning you were forced.

In actuality, choice is incredibly complex. There are thousands of individual events that will influence your choices. What you're doing right now could be influencing choices you make next decade, and you wouldn't know.

You can control people's choices without forcing their hand on anything. You can introduce information and events that sculpt their mind without so much as lifting a finger. It's a form of mind control, but not in the TV sense. Because people make the choices themselves.

Making someone do something is almost worthless. Convincing someone it's in their best interest to do something is where the value actually is. Look back at wars and our use of propaganda and try to break down what the end-goal is. It's not "making" people do something.

[nickpp]

We are learning and teaching machines. We can't help influencing and being influenced. Any interaction we have with another human being will influence us. Reading a book, an article or a simple blog or forum post will influence my mind. A lesson or a chat will influence me. Even a smell or a color will generate thoughts and actions in me. We can't help it - they are using the same mechanism we use for learning and without that we can't survive.

But does that mean that they control me? Only if this information comes from only one side and is well integrated in my regular trusted information streams overwhelming my defenses. Like propaganda. Or a Guru. Or an academic institution.

Ads on the other hand are quite easily defeated because they are both clearly delimited and coming from numerous, competing directions. In a world without Ads I would be very vulnerable to them. In our world though they are reduced to a more utilitarian function: to inform me. They tell me what options are out there, what is available and how to get it if I so choose.

I don't think they can "make me" do anything against my own interest or even change my mind. They can merely inform me and I have no problem with that.

[consteval]

> I don't think they can "make me" do anything against my own interest or even change my mind

I think you lack humility and imagination.

Once again, I remind you of the Tobacco industry. After advertisement was abolished, Tabacco use went down significantly. They often targeted young boys with promises of masculinity and prestige.

Keep in mind Tabacco isn't your average product either. It kills you, rather painfully and slowly.

If people can be influenced via ads to do that, which we know they can because they were, odds are you are being influenced right now with products with much less personal risk.

Or perhaps look at the obesity epidemic. We have millions upon millions of people literally eating themselves to death. Their quality of life is severely impacted. That's pretty extreme, certainly nobody would harm themselves like that without influence from the outside. Now, granted, we run into the same problem of confounding factors. Food tastes good and food sense is taught to children. But I personally believe advertisement has something to do with it.

Your note about "competing ads" I don't think works. The reason being that while ads may compete with each other, they all have the same goal - to get you to buy something. Yes, McDonald's and Wendy's compete, but, for you, the effects are pretty much the same. You buy something unhealthy to eat.

I've never seen an ad for not eating. I've never seen an ad for not buying a pair of shoes. I have seen ads for not smoking - PSAs. Which, I think, is really just further proof that advertising must work.

All that to say, I think if ads did work you would have no way of knowing. I think I said this previously but it's pretty much worthless to force someone to do something. The trick is getting them to do it and letting them believe they made the choice. That's the golden goose.

[nickpp]

Well, let's say ads work. I am not convinced, but you're persuading me. :)

Can't outlaw them - we still need them to quickly inform & educate the masses. The governments will definitely use them even if just for "good" purposes. Who will define "good" though? In a world without ads people will not build an immunity and any ad will have such an effect that the temptation to use it will become irresistible to anybody in power. And mark my words: they'll use them for worse stuff than smoking and eating.

Also, we'll loose all ad-supported free stuff. And there is a lot there, like pretty much all media. The poor will be the most affected, too, since stuff can be paid with money or attention and they have no money.

> Tobacco industry

I don't know any smoker that is not aware of the dangers. But what they get out of it makes it worth it to them. Believe it or not, most people do not live to maximize their life expectancy, they have other criteria as well - like pleasure or enjoyment of life. Otherwise everybody would start their day with 4 hours in the gym and walk everywhere.

> After advertisement was abolished, Tabacco use went down significantly.

I'm sure there were many other measures taken as well.

> the obesity epidemic [...] believe advertisement has something to do with it

How about the food pyramid pushed by governments that was full on processed carbs? How about the vilification of fat & meat made by the medical establishment I believe? How about people naturally choosing comfort and pleasure over hard work and restraint? How about partners working both with little time left to chop and cook at home?

I doubt you need ads to explain the obesity epidemic.

> I've never seen an ad for not eating. I've never seen an ad for not buying a pair of shoes.

Because we must eat and have shoes - we can't not buy food or shoes. None of those ads made me buy, they just influenced my purchase decision. And I see plenty of ads for health advisors and nutrition experts that tell me to eat more veggies and less sugar. Maybe they are not on main stream media, but alternative media is full of them.

> The trick is getting them to do it and letting them believe they made the choice.

If I wanted to protect my kids from that, I would expose them to more ads, not less. Because they would be even more vulnerable to ads if they saw fewer of them.

I believe that for the best ideas to win, we need to debate more, read more and learn more - not to burn the "bad" books.