[tialaramex]

You're correct about the TV special with the truck. I don't agree that magic doesn't work on TV. Regardless of whether it's a TV show or performed in front of me the nature of magic† (as a performance) is that the performer gets to decide what to show and obviously they aren't going to leave only a single possibility open to explain what I saw, that's something Penn has talked about - there's only one way to do that trick in The Prestige so you would never do that trick.

I've never seen Penn & Teller live, but I have seen Derren Brown both on TV and in person. Now, on TV one of the things which most impresses me is Derren's use of forces. There are a handful that even an amateur who knows what they're looking for can see in some of the TV shows and there are more places where it's obviously a force but I can't figure out how it's done. In person though, that experience is actually less fun, because of course the force doesn't work on me. So he's forced a theatre full of other people to do what he wanted, and they don't know how. It didn't work on me in the TV audience but that's fine, I'm not the target - when it doesn't work in a theatre full of people it's a bit disappointing. When I listened to a recording of "Thou shalt always kill" I knew from the outset what the last two lines would be but that still kinda works, again in person it wouldn't land the same.

† If you claim not to be a magician, that this is real, then it's not up to you what is shown or not shown, if Millikan's drop experiment only worked with this custom made box and a specified oil recipe then it's just a trick. We do the experiment in whatever circumstances are available and it works because it's measuring a fact about our universe, it's not a trick.

[gspencley]

I think what you mean by "force" is what magicians call a "psychological force." This is when, through suggestion, the spectator will name or do something that the magician was trying to get them to name/do, while having it look like the spectator had a free choice, through no other means than applied suggestion. These do "work", but as you pointed out they are not sure fire. You get the best results when you can do it on a large group of people and you're upfront about the fact that it won't work for everyone.

Although in Derren Brown's case, one of the things that makes him a genius in the world of magic is that he reversed that dynamic. One of the brilliant things about Derren Brown's "brand" of magic is that by blending stage hypnotism and parlour tricks, he does a lot of things where when you think you're watching a demonstration of stage hypnotism, it's actually a parlour trick that is dressed up to look like stage hypnotism.

In other words, he might use a classic sleight of hand trick to do a "force" while finding a way to frame and present it as if he were using suggestion.

But stage hypnotism and suggestion .. .that's not magic tricks. So if Derren Brown is employing a psychological force, or doing a demonstration of suggestion that will work for the majority of the audience but not all ... that's not a magic trick. By definition, it is not a trick.

What magicians mean when they talk about "forces" are ways to make it look like the spectator, ANY spectator, had a free choice but it was engineered. A card force, for example, where you think you have a free choice of any playing card but the magician "forced" a specific card on you. Those are 100% guaranteed. They don't use suggestion, they use sleight of hand, and there is no person in the world that those don't work 100% of the time on unless the magician makes a mistake.

Back to Derren Brown, although him and Teller are close personal friends and they don't hate each other by any means... P&T have been very outspoken about the fact that they consider some of what Derren does to be unethical, because he presents magic tricks as if they are displays of stage hypnotism or suggestion. Like most "mentalists" he has flirted with a line that many magicians will not cross. Where he claims that by reading body language, or using applied suggestion etc. that he can do or know certain things ... when the reality is those things are executed via traditional parlour trick methods are often just classic magic tricks that most magicians know and can do but are presented with a new/different layer of lies.

So why doesn't magic work on TV ... well, you gave the answer by invoking Derren Brown. If he is doing these "forces" (which to clarify I think you mean psychological "forces") and they work 10 out of 10 times on television but they don't work on 100% of live audience members .. well then you know why magic is weak (at best) on TV ... because all we need to do is go ask 52 people to think of a playing card, and guess that they're thinking of the 7 of Hearts (for example), and then just only air the one take where the guess was right.

There is a YouTube creator named James Hoffman who is a coffee barista. And he was on an episode of Derren Brown's Trick or Treat (if I remember those details correctly). His story of being on that show is very illuminating. He talks about how he was shown 2 different tricks, the first one fried his brain, the second one was "meh." For whatever reason they aired the 2nd one that was "meh", but cut in the reaction to the first one where he was like "OMG OMG that was so amazing."

Why would you trust what magicians tell you, when they say they don't do shit like that on television? This is why, as a huge fan of magic, I kind of hate televised / pre-recorded magic. I have no idea what they did during the editing process. Whereas live, there are so many more restrictions and the audience has a much clearer understanding and impression of what those restrictions are. But on tv... anything is possible through editing and vfx.

[tialaramex]

Derren used to have a TV show (I don't remember the name) where they actually show some times a live trick that was recorded for the show doesn't work. Because of course it can't always work. It's like those out-takes at the end of a Jackie Chan movie, two hours of this guy being flawless isn't real, here is the time he was a second too slow and ended up taking a kick to the head and his "enemies" all rush over to check he's OK.

I understand the distinction you're making but I think it's so narrow that these overlap in practice, there will always be a psychological element to controlling the volunteer. They could do anything and you don't want that because that's definitely not part of the show.

Derren has also done that "Only show the one where it worked" in a TV show but lampshaded it by also later showing the annoying hours of trying it and failing over and over. Again that's pretty interesting and it's a case where you could just fix it, but where's the fun in that? I think that was on a show about an actual scam pulled on gamblers, where you give somebody the false impression that you're picking winners reliably. That's not a trick, it's just a failure to consider the broader picture - every other participant knows you sometimes pick losers, but one "lucky" person does not and they're the victim.

[gspencley]

> I understand the distinction you're making but I think it's so narrow that these overlap in practice

Entire books have been written about this, literally. So obviously we're taking short-cuts in a HN thread. Teller has said "all magic is a psychology experiment" so you're correct in that regard.

The point that I'm trying to make is that magicians rarely take risks in live performances. It is a job and there is a lot at stake. Obviously anything can, and does, happen, but there is a very important reason that magicians (not me, but magicians as a whole) distinguish between "psychological forces" and "forces."

It is that "forces" are considered to be sure fire... so near to 100% guaranteed that we consider them 100% guaranteed. Whereas "psychological forces" are well understood to be much less than 100% guaranteed.

Do magicians ever use psychological forces in practice? Sure. If, when it fails, there is an "out." Where if you saw the same trick performed several times, it would play out slightly differently each time. For example, let's say that I ask you to think of a card, and then I take a 1 in 52 odds guess at what you're thinking just in case I hit. And maybe I will slightly improve my odds by guessing at commonly thought of playing cards. Most of the time it's not going to hit, and that's fine because there's a fall back. But it's done so that in the event that it hits we have what looks like a bonefide miracle. Magicians do that occasionally.

But most of the time it's not that. Most of the time the magician is executing something that is considered to be close enough to 100% that no fallback ("outs" as we call them) is necessary.

Now obviously you could have some jerk physically grab the deck out of your hands or say to you verbally "I want the 8 of spades" when you extend the cards to have them remove one. That can happen, sure, and an experienced performer will be able to navigate the situation and turn it around "you see the thing is, I could guess what card you were thinking of ... 68% of men between the age of 24 and 35 name the 8 of spades ... we need a RANDOM card for this trick" etc. (And that example is valid, but traditional performer wisdom is once you've recovered get that jerk off the stage and move on as fast as possible because they've just proven themselves to be disruptive).