[tialaramex]

Derren used to have a TV show (I don't remember the name) where they actually show some times a live trick that was recorded for the show doesn't work. Because of course it can't always work. It's like those out-takes at the end of a Jackie Chan movie, two hours of this guy being flawless isn't real, here is the time he was a second too slow and ended up taking a kick to the head and his "enemies" all rush over to check he's OK.

I understand the distinction you're making but I think it's so narrow that these overlap in practice, there will always be a psychological element to controlling the volunteer. They could do anything and you don't want that because that's definitely not part of the show.

Derren has also done that "Only show the one where it worked" in a TV show but lampshaded it by also later showing the annoying hours of trying it and failing over and over. Again that's pretty interesting and it's a case where you could just fix it, but where's the fun in that? I think that was on a show about an actual scam pulled on gamblers, where you give somebody the false impression that you're picking winners reliably. That's not a trick, it's just a failure to consider the broader picture - every other participant knows you sometimes pick losers, but one "lucky" person does not and they're the victim.

[gspencley]

> I understand the distinction you're making but I think it's so narrow that these overlap in practice

Entire books have been written about this, literally. So obviously we're taking short-cuts in a HN thread. Teller has said "all magic is a psychology experiment" so you're correct in that regard.

The point that I'm trying to make is that magicians rarely take risks in live performances. It is a job and there is a lot at stake. Obviously anything can, and does, happen, but there is a very important reason that magicians (not me, but magicians as a whole) distinguish between "psychological forces" and "forces."

It is that "forces" are considered to be sure fire... so near to 100% guaranteed that we consider them 100% guaranteed. Whereas "psychological forces" are well understood to be much less than 100% guaranteed.

Do magicians ever use psychological forces in practice? Sure. If, when it fails, there is an "out." Where if you saw the same trick performed several times, it would play out slightly differently each time. For example, let's say that I ask you to think of a card, and then I take a 1 in 52 odds guess at what you're thinking just in case I hit. And maybe I will slightly improve my odds by guessing at commonly thought of playing cards. Most of the time it's not going to hit, and that's fine because there's a fall back. But it's done so that in the event that it hits we have what looks like a bonefide miracle. Magicians do that occasionally.

But most of the time it's not that. Most of the time the magician is executing something that is considered to be close enough to 100% that no fallback ("outs" as we call them) is necessary.

Now obviously you could have some jerk physically grab the deck out of your hands or say to you verbally "I want the 8 of spades" when you extend the cards to have them remove one. That can happen, sure, and an experienced performer will be able to navigate the situation and turn it around "you see the thing is, I could guess what card you were thinking of ... 68% of men between the age of 24 and 35 name the 8 of spades ... we need a RANDOM card for this trick" etc. (And that example is valid, but traditional performer wisdom is once you've recovered get that jerk off the stage and move on as fast as possible because they've just proven themselves to be disruptive).