[patio11]

Without saying anything about this particular situation, can I just point out for the four hundredth time that $780 invoices generate far, far, far more stupidity than $7,800 or $78,000 invoices do? This is the fault of both people who send $780 invoices and people who generate work likely to cause $780 invoices. Many of you will be able to pick whether you are either of these types of people. I suggest being neither.

[Silhouette]

Without saying anything about this particular situation, can I just point out for the four hundredth time that $780 invoices generate far, far, far more stupidity than $7,800 or $78,000 invoices do?

Your argument is a classic case of the correlation/causation fallacy.

A modest invoice does not "generate" stupidity. Millions of freelancers around the world make a good living doing relatively small jobs for satisfied customers and submitting modest invoices that get paid on time.

If you are in a position to work on higher-value deals, then naturally you will be dealing with other people of the same level. To get to that level typically requires a certain degree of professionalism, whichever side of the deal you're on. So sure, people working with higher-value contracts tend to have less hassle.

But being messed around by someone who won't pay your invoice doesn't mysteriously become your fault just because the invoice amount was under $1,000. That really is akin to saying that it's your fault you were robbed because you forgot to lock your home, or that she was asking for it because she was wearing a short skirt and had a couple of drinks.

Many of you will be able to pick whether you are either of these types of people. I suggest being neither.

I usually agree with your comments, but in this case, I'm afraid your advice is like saying "Make sure you run a successful business and deal only with great clients!" If it were that easy, everyone would be doing it. In reality, even those of us who are successful today were the new guy once, and I expect that almost all of us have made at least one deal we would have preferred to avoid, so that we could pay the rent or fund a side project.

[tptacek]

I'm really not sure I see how you're able to get 4 paragraphs of objections from such a simple point.

We're talking about a $780 invoice. The invoice was generated before written contracts were completed because... it's a $780 invoice. The project was worth so little to the client and was so trivial to the vendor that it was able to commence with neither a full spec, nor a master agreement, nor a simple statement of work.

This isn't about "pick great clients"; it's about avoiding the rats nest of potential projects where there will always be a temptation to work under fly-by-night terms like this.

And once again, every time someone says "pick better clients", someone here has to come out of the woodwork to preach the gospel of the freelancer- who- makes- a- great- living- servicing- small- clients- and- we- can't- all- be- Patrick- Mckenzie. Well, with all due respect to my friend Patrick, but I have hung out with him many times and I can assure you he has not been bitten by any radioactive spider, at least so that I can perceive it. The guy built a bingo card generator --- a kind of Platonic minima for value derivable from software --- and parlayed it into his current business.

For cripes sake, you're on the same message board as he is; do what he did, get better clients. Stop complaining when people in very similar situations as you, or who started in very similar situations to you, tell you how to do better. Look at the advice you're getting: none of it involves kissing the ass of some financier at a VC firm. (1) Pick a specialization more narrow than "software development" so you're not competing on oDesk; (2) Segment your market so you can identify the most lucrative clients; (3) Tailor what you get good at to that market; (4) Be choosier; (5) Get paid. More.

[Silhouette]

I don't know whether English is your native language, Thomas, so perhaps that is the problem here. In any case, do you realise that you come across as extremely rude sometimes? In particular, you often seem to assume that others (me, in this particular case, but I've seen you do it to people before too) are not successful or do not know what we are talking about because we happen to disagree with you or someone you agree with. That is a very annoying habit, and it does nothing to promote interesting and informative discussions. I hope you will forgive my bluntness here, but you seem like a man who prefers honesty.

As it happens, I run multiple businesses today, one of which does work on bespoke projects for outside clients, and we do just fine with our calibre of clients and we send them invoices for a lot more than $1,000. In other words, I have no axe to grind here. But I don't see how that is relevant, really, anyway.

I simply objected to Patrick's characterisation of people who have problems with clients as being at fault themselves. I also object to the implication, which you seem to be making as well, that $780 is somehow a trivial amount of money and not worth bothering about, which is obviously not true for a lot of people out there particularly in the current economic climate.

It is not OK for someone to act unprofessionally, including not paying legitimate invoices within a reasonable period, regardless of the size of the deal. It would not be OK at $100,000. It would not be OK at $1,000. It would not be OK at $10. Whether or not it is worth involving lawyers as a practical matter has nothing to do with the ethics of the situation.

I therefore found the implication that someone new to the industry -- a position we were all in once -- somehow brought such poor behaviour upon themselves merely by taking on a relatively small job to be distasteful, the casual dismissal of the value of sub-$1,000 contracts to be rather conceited, and the whole post unnecessarily discouraging towards beginners who are taking their first steps into what often feels like a new and uncertain world.

[tptacek]

I am sorry that you are getting lumped in with a caricature of all the objections to this "pick better clients" message that exists mostly in my head. That's not fair.

But my points stand:

* It does not matter what you think is "OK" or "Not OK". Taking a month to pay an invoice is standard practice. Even if you negotiate Net-15 payment, it's standard practice: nobody pays on time. Complaining about a receivable when it has taken single-digit days to pay out is unprofessional.

* By working without a written contract, and in particular without any agreement as to how invoices will be paid, the freelancer has taken some of the responsibility for the payment drama.

* Choosing better clients, or (if it makes you feel better to say it this way) different kinds of projects to work on for clients, will produce better results for freelancers. If only because high-value projects almost never execute this carelessly.

* $780 is a trivial amount of money. Even for this person. By their own admission, we're talking about 12 billable hours. If you're a day and a half from bankruptcy, you're not ready to be working for yourself. Real clients will drag 9 months on invoices whether you think that's OK or "ethical". You can complain to them about it, or to the public, but you'll get paid on the same schedule either way, and you'll poison your reputation in the process.

[damoncali]

While I see what you're getting at, I make a lot of my income from invoices between $400 and $2000. The smaller ones are usually the most profitable, by a lot.

I've also never had anything even remotely approaching this sort of problem. It's jus so easily avoided by insisting on the basics of communication.

So I think you've got it backwards. People willing and able to work for $78k invoices have probably figured this out at some point (either the easy way or the hard way). People on the low end may or may not have. That's not a reason to avoid the low end. It's a reason to figure this stuff out.