[jtriangle]

You missed the user bit of what you're replying to.

There are android phones that have this ability, I have one. New batteries are ~20 bucks, and they take about 5 minutes to swap, most of which is shutdown/boot time. I can take my phone out innawoods and use offline GPS all day, and as a flashlight at night, by just bringing a pocketfull of batteries.

When a battery goes bad, I toss it in the recycle bucket, and buy a new one. I currently have 10 of them and they're on rotation.

What that means is, I get a new phone when apps stop working, and I use very few apps, so, that's been 5+ years since I adopted this model. It'd certainly be better for the environment and better for the consumer if manufacturers were on-board with this idea, but, it'd be far worse for their margins, so, these devices only exist on the periphery.

That said, I do think that Apple could make this work for the masses. Simply pair the batteries with the phone, keep everyone in the walled garden, don't allow 3rd parties in willy nilly, and then charge more for new batteries. That that system and spin the hell out of it, make android/google/et al look like evil megacorps filling the earth with chemicals leached from 1-time use android phones, and call it a day.

[Terretta]

> the user* bit*

"The masses" do not want to carry a bag of spare batteries. The masses don't want to have to think about it.

The latest generation devices are mostly "don't have to think about it" on batteries.

> New batteries are ~20 bucks

Gotta love those after-market or counterfeit high density inflammable energy packs crammed against your body or the bagful of 9 spares left in your car...

https://www.motleyrice.com/news/lithium-ion-batteries-explos...

Getting worse, not better:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/09/tech/lithium-ion-battery-fire...

I want real ones from a real company spending real money on R&D, that I "know where they live" if it's a problem.

Speaking of quality, I can use current iPhone off grid with offline GPS all day, and use it again the next day — without taking any battery packs.

The new "max" devices clock effectively two day battery life if you are conscious of what you're using it for (say, camping out off grid instead of doomscrolling Insta, for instance). I find even 3 or 4 sometimes if you're not picking it up and are in low energy and low data mode. Definitely 3 - 4 if you shut it off while asleep. It's nuts.

[ClumsyPilot]

> Gotta love those after-market or counterfeit high density inflammable energy packs crammed against your body or the bagful of 9 spares left in your car.

You see sir, when manufacturers compete on price we call that free market, and when you try to stop that we call that overregulation or protectionism.

But when talking about apple we suddenly call it ‘counterfeit’

Regardless of safety/counterfeit, you do realise that the OP has like 2 weeks supply of batteries for camping or apocalypse, and if ‘off grid living’ is your use case, it’s a slam-dunk?

[evilduck]

For camping and off grid living, recharging spare LiPo batteries via a ribbon cable or contact pins sounds like a massive pain in the ass. Give me a standard USB C based power bank, the thing that Solar Generators and many panels have supplied connections for, and can be used for any USB C device. Plus the phone never has to be opened and be vulnerable to ingress of moisture or debris.

And for apocalyptic scenarios your LiPos will naturally degrade collectively together in a few years even if they sit unused. An external battery with a more stable long term chemistry would be better.

[nradov]

Back when Samsung phones had user replaceable batteries they also sold separate battery chargers. This was super convenient because I could just grab a fresh battery from the charger on my way out the door. No need to carry a separate USB power bank. And moisture wasn't a problem, they had water resistant models. It's really a shame that phones have gone backwards in that area while advancing in most others.

[jtriangle]

Samsung still makes the x-cover series of phones. They're usually used in commercial applications, but, you can find them sold unlocked pretty easily.

And they offer a little charging dock with pogo pins, so, no wearing out the USBC port.

[jtriangle]

I have little battery dock things, really dumb devices, but, USBC goes in, battery docks in, and it slow charges in about 8 hours. I've got 3 of them.

Also if you're talking about the world being dark for 3 years, not sure batteries are the thing to stock up on friend. We'd be well into mad-max mode after a few months I'd think, and after a year or so of that, well, nothing's going to come back for a good long time.

I'm much more concerned with making it, say, a week without being able to charge, which, I can easily do without thinking too much.

[evilduck]

I can also go several weeks off grid with literally any phone, a moderately sized power bank and a 40w solar panel hanging off my pack or over a tent without thinking too much. It's far more versatile for powering other devices and I never have to reboot my phone. If you want to carefully buy stuff you can even get a fully IP65 rated or better setup, which makes it actually survivable to the elements.

I can't see how juggling internal batteries is anything but the worst possible option. I can upgrade or replace any one component without obsoleting the rest. How many future phones will accept your stockpile of batteries?

[Terretta]

> if you're talking about the world being dark for 3 years, not sure batteries are the thing to stock up on friend

Friends don't let friends go camping with a bag full of replaceable phone batteries.*

A couple alternatives I like...

This costs considerably less per milliwatt-hour than even ~$20 replaceable phone batteries, and is rather more useful camping:

https://www.amazon.com/Anker-PowerCore-Portable-Retractable-...

If one needs more oomph, this is 6 lbs, so I wouldn't take it for a walk. Depends on the type of camping:

https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Portable-Generator-Traveling-Em...

For the little bank, something like Anker Solix PS30 Solar Panel charges like a wall wart with just a couple hours' midday sun in northern U.S. or southern E.U.:

https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Foldable-Resistance-Ultra-Fast-...

North of 40th, combo can get us through strings of rainy days off grid while not thinking about it.

To cost less, on Alibaba you can match case style, plug placements, and feature/functions to find the same OEM models as well-known portable power and solar brands for a fraction of price if one doesn't mind ship time.

* That said, this is all one's power eggs in one power basket. To your point, a bag full of batteries means one can fry half a dozen and still have a few juicy eggs to suck dry, but don't lose tools or phone bits and bobs on field replacements and one will still want a panel or two to top them off!

[jtriangle]

Sure sure, and I lose the ability to keep a phone going 6+ years because the battery is glued into the case. So I'm making 3x the e-waste for... really nothing honestly.

In terms of power banks, I'm currently hoarding my friend's disposable vapes which all have fairly high output LiPO batteries in them. All I need once I'm done harvesting is a few 3D printed parts, a aliexpress BMS, and some wiring, and I'll have way more capacity than I know what to do with for very, very cheap. BMS is the most expensive part really, the rest is a few bucks, and, if I kill a cell, well, there's an abundance of disposable vape batteries available.

[jtriangle]

>you do realise that the OP has like 2 weeks supply of batteries for camping or apocalypse, and if ‘off grid living’ is your use case, it’s a slam-dunk?

I will admit, the main bottleneck is that I only have 3 battery dock chargers. So unless I'm planning on needing it, half of those batteries are charging or dead at any given time.

I'd bet I could be camping for a month or so with the batteries I have if I really put my mind to it.

[Terretta]

To others' point here, they even make solar topped rucksacks now. One of those, feeding a powerbank, and you top off your trailmap-photo-gps-emergency-sat-beacon gizmo on walkabout, no fiddling.

[jtriangle]

>"The masses" do not want to carry a bag of spare batteries. The masses don't want to have to think about it.

False, most people I know are already doing this, they're just doing it with a big lithium pouch cell coupled with a BMS/charge controller called a "battery bank"

>Gotta love those after-market or counterfeit high density inflammable energy packs crammed against your body or the bagful of 9 spares left in your car...

Never had one pop, never left anything lithium powered in a car. A black car on a very hot day in a very hot region can reach ~160f, which is hotter than the recommended storage temp of lithium batteries. Most places with a non-black car won't get hot enough to be a problem. Lithium batteries are fine to store up to ~140F. Do understand that the air in your car being 160f doesn't mean your batteries are, just that they will be eventually. How long is eventually? Ultra-situational. Put your batteries in a cooler, you're probably good forever. Put them loose on the dashboard, probably not good for very long. Same thing goes for your phone, or anything else with a lithium battery. They're not the boogyman, they're not magic, they're subject to the laws of thermodynamics just like everything else.

The reason for caution really is that you don't know the condition of your batteries. They could have been damaged but still function just fine until you put them into some marginal condition and then they're very not fine very quickly.

That's not specific to the batteries I carry in my backpack, that's the battery in your iphone too, and a quick google for "iphone battery fire" is proof of that enough.

That said, if your iphone sets your pants on fire, what're you realistically going to do? Sue apple? You know, the multibillion dollar a year company with so many lawyers that they have them setup in a huge building all their own? Good luck, you have exactly the same amount of recourse I do, ie, none. You also probably have auto insurance, and renters/homeowners insurance, so, it burning down your car/house/etc is well covered at least.

>effectively two day battery life if you are conscious

What people actually don't like doing is being forced to be 'conscious' of their devices. They don't really even like having to charge their devices. Throw a small standby battery in an iphone, have it pop the back off, swap in an iBattery that lives in your iBattery dock (which is also insulated and keeps your iBatteries charged up), and you're off to the races. Apple could make this a really good system.

They won't, because they exist to be as anti-consumer as possible while not pissing them off so much that they look elsewhere because that's what is profitable.

[Terretta]

> most people I know are already doing this, they're just doing it with a big lithium pouch cell coupled with a BMS/charge controller called a "battery bank"

Precisely. That means you can "not think about it" 4x as much as without it. One of those with USB-C in and a solar charger has gotten us by off grid for years, as well as perfect for long haul travel. No five minutes replaceable mucking about needed.

It's one thing, not a bag of 10, it packs slim, won't slow you down on an all-day all-night "Midnight Madness" scavenger hunt in NYC, and won't get you pulled out of line at the aeroport.

[jtriangle]

I wouldn't want to backpack with it to be honest. In my car? Sure, why not have a cooler sized battery with some solar panels, perfect solution really.

Also never had trouble flying with batteries. They're always in a ziplock and tossed into a bin, then back into my carryon. You can't check anything with a lithium battery, or, you're not supposed to at least.

[paulmd]

> When a battery goes bad, I toss it in the recycle bucket, and buy a new one. I currently have 10 of them and they're on rotation.

not to pick on you but it’s baffling the way some people clothe themselves in right to repair and then bust out some shit like this. this is absolutely insane from an e-waste and frankly just regular-waste perspective.

I’m sure it’s very convenient and granted everyone needs batteries, but still, “they fail and I throw them away and buy new ones, I currently have 10” is objectively insane and I have to think that buying shitty non-oem batteries is a major part of why you churn batteries so much.

“I said it sounds like he’s just feeding e-waste to landfills and hackernews started crying”

maybe think about buying some 18650 batteries and a power bank or something, idk. You can get cold-weather 18650 cells which improve outdoors performance a lot, and good quality 18650s last a half decade or more.

Really disappointing how right to repair just turned out to be a fashion accessory for most people, and the actual boots-on-the-ground aspects like oem parts availability and not using disposable junk batteries didn’t sink in, people are literally happy to have a backpack full of 10 Amazon batteries they change out every 6 months if it means they get to bash apple and feel smug about it. The discussion around usb-c vs lightning went much the same way - people were exuberant at the prospect of filling the landfills full of discarded cables (on a port that's been around for a decade), as long as they were the right cables. People bashed the self-service/OEM parts availability for being some kind of plot or conspiracy. People bashed it because the OEM factory repair tools apple will rent or sell you are too big and clunky.

There really, really ought to be a real attempt to account and attribute some of these total lifecycles, independently of some of the fandom and some of the actors involved with R2R with their own personal foibles and financial interests. Specifically thinking of component-level repair as not being in the interest of certain major backers of R2R, for example. There should be an accounting of what the actual cost is for that decision, vs the aspects of R2R increasing the churn on these essentially-disposable amazon batteries and other junk and so on. Those things need to be attributed in the total lifecycle cost too, if bunches of people keep doing the same thing you are that's a real social problem. Ten batteries, and I just swap them out when they fail and buy new ones to throw away. One of the most polluting and dangerous and toxic parts of the phone. Good lord.

I hope you are at least sending them for proper disposal, but even that is not currently even close to full recycling efficiency iirc.

[jtriangle]

>not to pick on you but it’s baffling the way some people clothe themselves in right to repair and then bust out some shit like this. this is absolutely insane from an e-waste and frankly just regular-waste perspective.

It's a lithium recycle bucket at my local library. I'll admit, I don't really know what the service is that they use, but I do assume that those batteries are getting turned into new batteries somewhere. They could end up landfilled though, your guess is as good as mine. I'm not really sure why you thought "recycle bucket" meant "where the aluminum cans go"...

>buying shitty non-oem batteries is a major part of why you churn batteries so much.

Funny enough, the OEM batteries are LION, and the replacements are LIPO, so, the replacements actually have a fair bit more capacity than the originals, at like half the cost. I've only replaced 3 of them in 5 years, and I bought 10 when I bought the phone. I do have a couple I have sharpie'd red because they are down on capacity but still usable, but they still get me a full day without any drama. That's my benchmark for replacement, if it doesn't make it a day, into the bucket it goes, and back to amazon for a new one.

Something you're missing though is, I can get aftermarket batteries for my phone, and, I have at least 3 different designs in my possession, so, there's good competition in that space. It's china-based competition, but, it seems to have yielded good results here.

Do understand that, I'm likely keeping this phone 2-3x as long as most people keep their phones, basically until an app I use stops working because the android version I have is too old. So maybe I go through a few batteries, but, I'd end up doing that regardless. What I don't go through is any of the other components, so far less waste there. Not why I do it, but, a nice side effect nonetheless.

>There really, really ought to be a real attempt to account and attribute some of these total lifecycles

I couldn't agree more honestly. I think the 2-3 year phone churn is absolutely abhorrent for many reasons. I also think $1000+ phones are equally abhorrent given their lifecycle, and how features continue to be stripped out of phones and sold as features. Sure, consumers are of middling intelligence (objectively), that doesn't mean companies aren't also a little evil. I also don't think that the current incentive structure is going to allow for any of that to change, no matter how well presented any argument to the contrary is. You effectively have zero competition in the phone space, because they've made it intentionally difficult to switch between flavors of phone. That alone should be a multi-billion dollar antitrust lawsuit against anyone who does it. Then you can go after things like glued-in screens and soldered/glued in batteries and charging ports that are PCB mounted to the mainboard. Get rid of those things and you probably wind up with something that'll last a very, very long time. You also probably get rid of incremental tech improvements altogether because they won't be worth the R&D dollars. Hard to tell what the unintended consequences of that would be.