[dubme1]

Paid Kagi user here. I REALLY wish Kagi would focus on it's core selling point: search. Building a search engine is hard enough. I use Kagi Search everyday and I am mostly happy with it but the product has a lot of room for improvment.

Stop launching new products (browser, summarizer, gpt, assistant) while your core product is still behind the competition in many areas.

[barbazoo]

To me it seems like that's what they're doing here. I don't see right away how this is not their core business.

> Kagi Assistant has the ability to use Kagi Search to source the highest quality information meaning that its responses are grounded in the most up-to-date factual information while disregarding most “spam” and “made for advertising” sites with our unique ranking algorithm and user search personalizations on top.

[daveoc64]

You have to pay extra for it, so it can't be part of the core business.

[unshavedyak]

Paid Kagi user here. I love the AI additions, because to me it's an alternate interface to the core selling point: search.

Whether or not Kagi can achieve more than the "search alone is hard enough" point however is fair - though i've been happy so far.

[freedomben]

Same. I love the AI additions and I think they've introduced them very thoughtfully.

To me, the best part of the AI additions is that it can (almost instantaneously) summarize information from the several top hits of a search. This is subtly but importantly different from having the LLM spit out an answer based on it's knowledge base, and also is able to quickly and easily cite it's sources! Extremely useful to me.

[unshavedyak]

Agreed! To me LLMs as they stand now are a natural extension of the classic "Google". Which is to say a Natural Language -> Search Results list. People (and products lol) got hung up on LLMs returning the answers directly.. and while they've been a definite disappointment in that realm, they can be great for summarizing and aggregating imo.

[bastawhiz]

I couldn't disagree any harder. When I can't find an answer, I turn to LLMs. I don't want to read half the docs on an AWS product, I want the snippet of code that I care about. Kagi, as best as I can tell, is the only search service which can answer these questions and also respects me as a customer.

I think of it this way: there's often not a single page (or even small handful of pages) that answer a query. The LLM features answer the question with text that links to the pages, rather than answering my question with pages that might contain pieces of answers.

[freedomben]

The AI additions IMHO are search. Historically search gave us an ordered list of results, but there's no reason it needs to. The Kagi quick answer for example is phenomenal IMHO. Most of the time I am searching is because I need information for something. The "quick answer" and it's source citing can much more quickly tell me whether the results are worth a click. At this point I would hate to return to the old list of links output.

[dawnerd]

I think the problem is we're blending two different methodologies for finding information. When I search for something I want to get to the source. Others just want the answer. Ideally it should still be smart enough to figure that out, kinda what it does already if you search with a question.

[Spivak]

If you hear Vlad talk it's very clear that he considers these things to be part of that core product. The summarizer powers the ability to summarize articles / search results (even video), the assistant and fastgpt power their answer to Google's snippets and quick answers, small-web is the minimum-useful thing to start their own index and not have to pay rent to Bing/Google, and they view Orion to be a long-term bet on the belief that this is the only way they'll get Kagi as a default search engine.

[jmaker]

Great points. Though I think in order for any search to become a default in some browser app would take a billion or so in competing annual payment, or Google it will remain.

Also, AI aside, Searx has been around for many years as a very promising metasearch, even self-hosted engine, alas still little traction. Great to have all results, including re-ranked Google and Reddit in one place.

[darby_nine]

> while your core product is still behind the competition in many areas

IDK, I've been very happy with it. Just the ability to consistently pin/block domains is a massive upgrade over Google.

[mattl]

The move to AI stuff is why I don’t have a Kagi subscription. I really liked the idea of paying for search. I don’t want to give any money to an AI product.

[i80and]

I for one cancelled my Kagi subscription over this nonsense. I like paying for my search, but the AI "quick answer" integration is dangerously prone to incorrectly cited hallucinations, and I don't want to encourage this kind of irresponsible use of technology

[viraptor]

I think this is very much about search. They just took on what Perplexity is doing with search. And I'm glad because I've been using it occasionally and now I can just keep everything in Kagi.

They're literally taking on competition here.

[pps]

In my opinion, the results from Kagi Assistants are significantly inferior. I'm subscribed to both services and tried the Ultimate tier for a few days two weeks ago to test the new assistants. If they add the ability to search with multiple steps and allow the AI to digest more results, then they could be on par. It's more similar to ChatGPT at this stage, IMO.

[Terretta]

> core selling point: search

The people I know who like to dictate into their phones and who have OpenAI's iOS app tend to open ChatGPT to "search" before they open Google or Ask Siri now.

They're going to go to one thing first, and this puts Kagi as an option.

Apple's alleged integration with OpenAI is presumably rolling in to Sherlock this though.

[jm4]

Why should they try to reach feature parity with some other engine that has more developers and more money? That's a losing strategy. They are running their own race and I think it's great. Kagi assistant is incredibly useful and there's no one else doing it like Kagi.

[jmaker]

I think AI capabilities have been becoming an integral part of modern search. On the flip side you have the SEO optimizations.

Brave Search has offered an AI summarizer and assistant for a long time now. Bing with their OpenAI-powered Copilot. Google with the improved Bard/Gemini more recently. Amazon with the perhaps Anthropic-based Q for Business.

I think the end user is growing to expect the AI-augmented experience from all knowledge lookups. Feedback loop queries have become so natural to me, I’ve been finding it awkward to ask only one search query without a narrowing follow-up query, having the former discarded - kinda no longer adequate, particularly given the SEO-optimized flip side full of junk.

[Apocryphon]

I agree that they should focus on their core product, but ironically while I use Kagi from time to time, I'm still mostly on DDG- via Orion, a browser I'm willing to pay for.

[freediver]

> while your core product is still behind the competition in many areas.

Care to explain what exactly do you mean by this?

[coconut08]

paying user here and i love these new additions and am super grateful they have added them. these tools are a real boon to improving search and for getting information.