[sophacles]

Neat project. I like the focus on the positive. IMO this will be a good resource. I really hope this succeeds and takes off in a big way. I like to encourage the women I know in tech to participate in stuff like this, but many times they don't want to because a lot of times "women in tech" issues focus too much on the negative, or the sexism issue rather than the positive or even just the tech.

I don't know anyone in Toronto, but I have several nominations around the US, should your scope expansion work out :)

(Completely aside: is there any good advice for men who want to further the role of women in tech -- because balance is always a good idea -- to help and encourage without being overbearing or accidentally patronizing? I worry about furthering the problem accidentally so I very rarely bring up this topic, even though I feel strongly about it).

[ericabiz]

"Completely aside: is there any good advice for men who want to further the role of women in tech..."

As a successful woman in tech, I would say the following:

--Note that women tend to underplay their accomplishments and judge themselves more harshly (I've also seen men who fit into this pattern, but it's more common with women.) So when a woman who fits this pattern says "I'm decent at x", it may be the same as a man saying "I'm great at x."

--Become a champion for the women in your life who deserve more recognition. Encourage them to take more leadership roles, jump at more speaking gigs when presented with the opportunity, etc. Women will often tend to think "I'm not ready for that yet" while a man with similar experience will say "Yeah, let's go for it!"

--Help the youngest girls in your life develop more self-confidence. My cousin, a brilliantly smart teenager, kept telling me, "I'm terrible at math." I encouraged her to focus on the positive (she was getting great grades in her math classes, and understood the problem set) and to think more positively about her abilities.

This lack of self-confidence is ingrained from an early age in many women and affects us throughout life in many cases. Encouraging girls to think more empowering thoughts and to have more confidence may be the best thing you can do to give them a better chance for success.

[wccrawford]

I'm a guy who fits your description of judging themselves too harshly and downplaying their skills and readiness. I have a tough time telling when other people are doing this, even though I do it myself.

Do you have any advice for telling when someone is doing this?

I ask because I can't blindly apply it to women any more than men, because I've seen so many women be over-confident in their skills, too.

[ericabiz]

"Do you have any advice for telling when someone is doing this?"

Yes.

Put simply, learn to read facial cues. (It's easier than you think--much like a programming language, facial cues are a system. So if you are a systems thinker--and I bet you are, based on the fact that you're here on Hacker News--learning facial and body cues will probably be one of the best time investments you'll ever make.)

I had no ingrained social skills when I grew up, so I had to learn facial cues to understand how to fit in socially. I can read nervousness on a face, and I can read the body posture and awkwardness that comes with not being sure of your ideas.

The first thing I did was to videotape myself speaking and focus on getting rid of those same cues in my own speech and posture. Then I started watching others. After a while, I could start to pick up all kinds of stuff. It's like a hidden language. I could tell when someone was lying or untrustworthy, when they were interested in what I was saying and when they had zoned out, etc. Incredibly useful!

So, to tell when someone is judging themselves too harshly, I look for two patterns:

1) Negative self-talk. "I never could do this...I can't do this...I don't know how to do this...this is impossible...I guess I'm just not cut out for this..." are some of the verbal patterns. Another common verbal pattern is looking for the negative in a given situation..."Yeah, I know C++, but not Javascript, and so I'm not the right fit" vs. "I'm a great programmer; I don't know Javascript yet, but I'm sure I can pick it up given some time and guidance." (I made a concerted effort to get rid of my own negative self-talk and documented the result here: http://www.erica.biz/2008/my-7-day-no-complaining-wrapup-or-... )

2) Demeanor cues. Socially awkward, casting down glances toward the floor, not meeting eyes, mumbling. (Don't get too upset if you have some of these but you feel like you don't fit the description above...these can also describe other behaviors.)

Here is the book I used to learn more about this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0757003141/ref=as_li_ss_tl?... It was fantastic to read and finally feel relief that people's facial and body cues are a system that I can learn and understand.

[MartinCron]

My advice would be the flip side of the advice that I give to people who downplay their skills, which is "focus on telling concrete meaningful stories".

So, you could, when interviewing, focus on bringing out discrete meaningful stories. Ask for those kinds of examples. Ask what they're proud of. Create a space in which they feel comfortable saying positive things about themselves. Maybe lead by example by talking about part of the organization that you think is awesome.

Instead of asking "what are you good at?" you could ask for things like "what do you most love doing?" Also, asking for numeric ranking "1-5" of technical skills might be a little too aggro/macho.

Don't downplay the plural "we built this" as less important as the singular "I built this" Some people are just better at sharing the credit than others. If in doubt, ask for clarity.

[sophacles]

Thanks for the advice!

[groby_b]

Completely aside:...

As another successful woman in tech, yes, there is. A very simple thing. Whenever you hear your colleagues make a misogynist remark, call them out on it.

Yes, I realize many of them are meant as funny asides, but here's the problem: They still hurt. We get that they're usually not meant offensive, but it's simply not funny if you're on the receiving end of those "jokes". Every single one of them is a cut to the confidence and willingness of women in this field.

I know you want to focus on the positive, and I apologize for dragging in a negative instead.

To be clear, nobody requires you to be a knight in shining armor, riding to our rescue ;) But it'd sure be nice to occasionally hear an "You know what, dude? Not cool. Not cool at all" when those remarks come out.

[sophacles]

Thanks for the input!

[clarebear]

Is there any good advice for men who want to further the role of women in tech? My advice is to pick a woman (one at a time) that you get along with and think is or could be a rock star and then mentor her. Nominate her for awards. Let her know when opportunities may be available in 6 months, and how to make herself a top candidate for that role in the decision makers minds before it is announced. As a woman in tech, I have found it very frustrating that women who do make it to a high level either don't know how they did it or aren't honest about the process (tricks and sacrifices) at women's networking events. But from what I can tell, this is it. Someone knowingly picked them to be in the right place at the right time, gave them the support to run with whatever it was, and helped recognize their achievements. On the other end of the spectrum, don't decide for women working for/ with you what their priorities are without them telling you (for example, if she has a kid, assume she wouldn't want to go to this conference without asking). Invite friends' daughters to take your kid to work day if they don't think to ask.

[sophacles]

Thanks for this input!

I read an article once, about racism in the workplace, and how it creates a situation where minorities who succeed are harsher on people of the same minority than others are on anyone of that minority. I can't remember the name of the phenomenon, (or honestly the article) but it referenced an study done on successful women in the workplace, who followed that pattern as well. The general phenomenon was attributed to this general set of thoughts:

1. The successful person probably had some struggles getting to success, which were overcome. (No reference to help or not).

2. The successful person is has gained a tenuous foothold for the group, and is believes that they can help others succeed, but also worries that they might be seen as an exceptional outlier to the general stereotypical views the outlier holds to that group.

3. The successful person wants to get other people from the group in, but only knows the one path that worked for them. They also know the mistakes and have hindsight on "easier" ways.

4. Combining the fears about stereotypes, and the bits of wisdom they have, as well as the limited knowledge of successful paths (frequently there aren't a lot of other role models to compare with), they want to mold their successors into their understanding. The limited view, plus consequences of losing the foothold being a potentially big setback for the group, they tend to become very strict disciplinarians, as a way of maintaining the success path to a greater "beachead" for their group.

(I know this paraphrasing of the article is not the best, I'm pretty tired, and it was a long time ago I read about it.)

I don't know if this is what is happening in what you describe, but it reminded me of it. I'll see if I can dig up a reference, but perhaps just knowing about this will help you and other women at these events who are experiencing the problem you describe contextualize what is happening. Maybe it would help get the women who aren't being honest to open up about their mistakes and actual paths.

A different tack on this same thing: it might also be an outcropping of the common "i did this on my own" image of success that seems to be the cultural norm for successful people to project: if they had help, they shouldn't admit it, perhaps enhanced by the fact that in the dominant group, imperfections (such as admitting needing a mentor) are less judged than those same imperfections in a minority.