[stanislavb]

Some interesting facts:

- Durov is, according to him, living in exile outside of Russia since 2014 - due to Russian gov persecution.

- Since his "exile" - he has travelled 50-60 times to Russia https://www.reddit.com/r/Telegram/comments/1f2pgg3/pavel_dur...

- Most Russian billionaires that live in exile and are persecuted by the RU gov fall from windows (or something tall) quite often. Durov has been living lavishly though.

- Russia is trying to protect him now that he is being charged.

i.e. a lot of odd and contradicting moments.

[Shank]

In 2022 and beyond, Durov has posted very publicly about Ukraine, inclduing support for Ukraine and reiterating parts of his history with the FSB at VK [0].

Telegram was also blocked in Russia for a period of time while they argued about compliance [1].

I think it is far more likely that Russia understands that Durov is one of the most influential people that acts as an emissary to their country. His past altercations around VK and subsequent compliance with various investigations in Russia probably mean they have at least a semi-amicable relationship now. The reality is that, for better or for worse, Telegram is widely used by a large number of people. In just the same way that US agencies can compel investigations with US companies, I'm sure that Russia exerts some amount of control on Telegram for investigation purposes. But this is what I would expect about any messaging platform that isn't fully E2EE.

The fact of the matter is that Telegram's flagship product for many people is NOT the messaging system, it's the non-encrypted channels system, which has been used widely by various people to act as a social network. This system is valuable to investigate for a lot of people. Encrypted messaging aside, companies usually are compelled to do a minimum amount of compliance work with authorities for jurisdictions they operate in.

[0]: https://t.me/durov/179

[1]: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/whats-...

[BlueTemplar]

> In just the same way that US agencies can compel investigations with US companies, I'm sure that Russia exerts some amount of control on Telegram for investigation purposes.

Not in the same way, since Telegram (unlike, say, vKontakte), is NOT a Russian company.

(At least officially, also quite anti-Putin at its funding... less clearly now.)

[kelnos]

> Since his "exile" - he has travelled 50-60 times to Russia

That "fact" is disputed. The source of that information appears to have relied on unverified information, among other issues.

I do find it odd that Russia is working so hard to get him out of France, though.

[jajko]

Its almost like some PR gestures are irrelevant when actual SHTF, and then you see intents and corresponding actions in clear.

[cvalka]

The information had been verified by the Russian independent media.

[tucnak]

Interesting that this comment is down-voted. I think it's worth noting that Telegram LLC—as organisation itself—is anomalous to the point where it's consistent with Russian "cover" doctrine. For example, you wouldn't find ex-Telegram employees on Linkedin, Telegram itself seemingly doesn't invite people for interviews, there's no ex-Telegram people in the industry. Their open source software is developed using fake-umbrella accounts such as John Preston, DrKLO, Ilya Laktyushin (Telegram Desktop, Android and iOS clients respectively.) There is no executive layer in the company, too. Telegram doesn't seem to compete for engineering talent on labour market, Telegram employees don't go to conferences, are never seen on mailing lists of open source projects, etc.

We're simply led to believe that Telegram (a 950M user base) is developed by a Pavel, his brother, and their "friends" in Dubai. There's no evidence of any physical office in Dubai, too.

In short, there's very little evidence to corroborate their story.

[Shank]

> Telegram doesn't seem to compete for engineering talent on labour market, Telegram employees don't go to conferences, are never seen on mailing lists of open source projects, etc.

Isn't the whole narrative that Durov, who is essentially extremely rich as a result of building VK, bankrolled the whole creation? For all of the criticism, Telegram remains one of the most highly polished and well-designed apps I've ever used. It doesn't get bogged down with lots of messages, and has regular feature-rich updates. It seems to me like Telegram has one of the best development teams on the planet in terms of sheer output. Maybe they don't need to compete on talent simply because they're paid well by Durov?

[dools]

> Maybe they don't need to compete on talent simply because they're paid well by Durov?

Or because they're staffed by the Kremlin!

[NayamAmarshe]

Any source on that?

[anon373839]

Be real. You’re obviously not going to be able to find a source for that. I think the facts stated above (about the lack of a visible human footprint for this company) easily raise a presumption that something is not right.

[NayamAmarshe]

Then you probably don't know the history of Telegram enough to make such claims.

[rightbyte]

Whatsapp had 55 employees when Zuckerberg borged it.

[gdsfg534]

It's hilarious that what you impute to them is, essentially, that they don't have enough bullshit: useless management that hires endless hordes of bootcamp graduates for no reason (then lays them off when cheap money are over), no BS conferences without any substance, no hires of overpriced American "talent" when they have a tremendous pool of much much much more affordable and no less qualified people from CIS countries. Also, let's not pretend that a chat app is some kind of rocket science that requires a company of gazillion engineers and other stuff characteristic of VC funded special Olympics.

[anon373839]

> Also, let's not pretend that a chat app is some kind of rocket science that requires a company of gazillion engineers

You cannot be serious. A service with a billion users and Telegram’s feature-richness and complexity cannot be maintained by a few people. If it’s true that there are no Telegram alums on LinkedIn, etc., that is deeply suspicious.

[fakedang]

Apart from the WhatsApp example (which itself is enough to suffice, because WA hasn't changed much on positives post-acquisition), it's very much possible that Telegram is just a bunch of 50 or so people. They do not have a Dubai office afaik, but it's not that hard to get CIS talent to move to Dubai for highly paid but less than US salaries.

FWIW, I co-run a quanty multifamily investment office, and all of our employees (including partners) are expressly forbidden from listing their workplace on LinkedIn - which is the norm for family offices. We simply write Family Office and call it a day. In return, the firm will take care of you and your family for generations - extensive compensation but also other perks that you will never get in other jobs at any level.

[rightbyte]

Whatsapp had about 50 employees at half a billion users before Facebook. What could that mean. 15 programmers and 10 sysadmins?

[trustno2]

He also has a French citizenship despite having no connections to France, which he somehow magically gotten due to "merit foreigner" status in 2021.

Le Monde couldn't figure out why he gotten that citizenship, there is very little detail.

>Durov was naturalized as a French citizen in August 2021, giving him European Union citizenship. Le Monde described the naturalisation as "mysterious", since Durov had not resided in France apart from brief visits. Le Monde suggested that Durov was naturalised via the rarely used "merit foreigner" procedure that is awarded directly by the French government to people viewed to have contributed exceptionally to France's international influence or international economic relations.

[dools]

Yeah and Telegram is also the biggest source of disinfo. Total Russian operation.

[datadeft]

Sorry but you can't blame the medium for this. If you do please also blame everybody else: keyboard producers, monitor manufacturers etc. Do not just cherry pick one vendor.

[dools]

This is like saying there is no difference between a postal worker and the getaway driver in a bank heist.

[hagbard_c]

One person's 'disinfo' is another's info, that same person's info is propaganda to another. The recent acknowledgement by Zuckerberg that the Biden/Harris regime pressured them into censoring information should give you some thought about what is 'disinfo'.

In other words don't be too quick in condemning channels which allow voices outside the desired narrative to be heard because the day might come than you need to step outside it. Given that you seem to recognise 'disinfo' - given your claim of Telegram being the main source of it - you can just ignore it just like others ignore what they consider or know to be falsehoods.

[wewxjfq]

The amount of disinfo the Telegram defenders spread about this case only shows that they are far from the critical thinkers they think they are. Back when there was nothing known about the arrest other than it did indeed take place, it was the pro-Telegram crowd that was making all kinds of outlandish claims.

I can tell from the sidelines that you guys "doing your own research" and "staying informed" is a net negative for a society.

[dools]

> One person's 'disinfo' is another's info, that same person's info is propaganda to another

Yeah the only difference is that one person is right and the other person is wrong.

> The recent acknowledgement by Zuckerberg that the Biden/Harris regime pressured them into censoring information should give you some thought about what is 'disinfo'.

Of course they fucking did, and so they should have. Also, you think the current Republican controlled senate hasn't applied any "pressure" to obtain this statement right now for their bullshit committee?

Facebook's statement doesn't say they shut down anything factual, just that they took down a bunch of covid content "including humour and satire". The shit they took down was still disinfo. The entire anti-vaccination movement is libertarian propaganda (why do you think there's no anti-anaesthetics movement? It's made by the same companies, used about as widely and is orders of magnitude more dangerous).

> In other words don't be too quick in condemning channels which allow voices outside the desired narrative to be heard because the day might come than you need to step outside it

It's patently obvious that Telegram is a Russian operation. The messages aren't really encrypted, the founder isn't really in exile, and oh it just so happens that all the most batshit crazy conspiracy theories originate there.

[madars]

>why do you think there's no anti-anaesthetics movement?

for one, I've never been required to get anesthesia as a condition of employment. lumping all vaccines together is not productive and we don't do that when discussing painkillers. there is a movement against OxyContin but not a movement against Ibuprofen.

[dools]

> for one, I've never been required to get anesthesia as a condition of employment

You've been required to get anaesthesia as a condition of getting dental work done, or any number of routine day procedures, or more serious operations. Maybe you've never had to have anaesthetic at all, but you certainly will at some point in your life.

> lumping all vaccines together is not productive and we don't do that when discussing painkillers. there is a movement against OxyContin but not a movement against Ibuprofen

There is no "movement against oxycontin". There are a slew of well documented and successful legal cases against Purdue for its misleading advertising of Oxy in the US, but there's not like, a groundswell of conspiracy theories about it. In fact, the way that the Oxy case has played out is a good example of what real conspiracy looks like, and how it shows up in the legal system.

Sure there are accidental overdoses in other countries, and people everywhere every day are either hospitalised or die from accidental or intentional overdoses of opioids, but not to the same scale. The way that it's played out in the US worse than anywhere else and is as much to do with the dysfunctional nature of the healthcare system that allowed Purdue to behave the way it did, as it is to do with the drugs themselves.

Compared to that, the covid vaccine story (and story about vaccines generally) is a case in point about what a manufactured conspiracy theory looks like and how it shows up in the legal system (ie. a series of politically motivated lawsuits that fall along party lines).

[hagbard_c]

> You've been required to get anaesthesia as a condition of getting dental work done

Odd, that has always been optional where I've lived - the Netherlands and Sweden, mostly. I understand that is is a requirement for very large operations but for normal procedures it has never been a requirement.

> covid vaccine story (and story about vaccines generally)

Why do you insist on lumping together these two very disparate cases? There is an enormous gap between the small cohort of people who distrust established vaccines - e.g. those administered to children, those needed when travelling to the tropics, etc. - and the large cohort who distrust the experimental SARS2 therapeutics which were forced upon the masses in different ways. All you achieve by lumping these two together is to increase distrust in established vaccines, both by exposing the second cohort to the arguments of the first as well as by the fact that the negative side effects of the SARS2 therapeutics are slowly but surely being published to a wider audience.

[hagbard_c]

> Yeah the only difference is that one person is right and the other person is wrong.

Says everyone. While there are clear examples where this is the case - e.g. SARS2 vaccines do not protect against infection nor do they protect against infecting others - there are many other situations where 'right' and 'wrong' are not so clearly defined. When someone claims a certain party or presidential candidate is a 'threat to democracy' there is no clear 'right' or 'wrong' as these are opinions, not facts.

Your following statements with regards to the 'current Republican-controlled senate' show where your bias lies and explains why you react the way you do. Now try to step outside your bubble for a while - and yes, you are in a bubble just like most others (myself included) are - and step in another one, say the bubble inhabited by a Russian or someone who supports the current Russian regime. That person would consider it 'patently obvious that Facebook (et al) are American operations. The messages can be intercepted by the operators who censor on behalf of the American regime.

If you are happy using platforms which are controlled by this or that government, fine. I prefer to be able to say what I want without either the American or Russian or French or Swedish or Dutch (etc.) governments interfering or censoring so I run my own services. This happens to be dead-easy and nearly maintenance-free.