[ChrisMarshallNY]

I had a teacher once, at a training seminar, that kept repeating the phrase "We need to know what 'done' looks like."

"Done" is often a compromise. There's more that can be added, there's still burrs and "rough spots," but we need to declare it ready to go out the door, and be prepared to fully support our release.

I've been shipping software for my entire adult life, and have had to embrace this philosophy.

Just the other day, I stopped working on a "play" project that I was working on, because it was a rabbithole, and not worth the agita of fixing the fundamental design issues that I was encountering (an unfortunate by-product of my "Evolutionary Design" process, is that it's quite easy to fall into Wonderland, and I need to learn to understand that I should just let the rabbit go).

[mandeepj]

> "We need to know what 'done' looks like."

As much hate as Agile gets here at HN because of its wrong usage by many people, one thing that Agile recommends is setting up a 'Definition of Done' within your team before even starting your very first sprint.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

It’s much older than Agile. The Japanese company I worked for, did that.

They would start at the end, and work backwards.

They hated Agile.

[mandeepj]

> It’s much older than Agile. The Japanese company I worked for, did that.

How old? The origin of Agile goes back to the 1950s in Japan

[randomdata]

Agile is from 2001. What you seem to be thinking of is the Toyota Production System. It is quite possible that TPS inspired Agile, but to claim that it is Agile is like saying that GPT is from the 1960s (because it shares some resemblance to Eliza).

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Yeah, the Toyota JiT stuff, but the company I worked for is a 100+-year-old engineering corporation, and didn't do stuff in no new-fangled, 1950s-kid-playground way.

But the term "Agile," is a lot more recent (and US-based). I rapidly learned never to use that word within earshot of my managers. Sort of like saying "California Roll" in a traditional Tokyo sushi joint.

[randomdata]

> I rapidly learned never to use that word within earshot of my managers.

Stands to reason. Agile, in the Manifesto sense, defines the considerations to consider should managers be eliminated from the picture. Nobody is going to be comfortable knowing that their job is on the chopping block.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

It's not really that.

It's because that company is laser-focused on Quality (they have a well-earned reputation as one of the highest-Quality manufacturers in the world).

They believe that Agile promotes bad-quality work, because it promotes a lack of Discipline and checks and balances (which are necessary components of high-Quality production).

I disagree, but many of the Agile proponents exemplify low-quality work, because they deliberately eschew Discipline and checks and balances. They use Agile as "Santa Claus for young developers," as opposed to what I believe is Agile's focus on delivering high-quality, useful, and timely, product to end-users.

We need more examples of the Agile process doing really good work.

[randomdata]

Agile says nothing about defining what is done.

Scrum uses the exact "Definition of Done" language, though. I suspect that you are really thinking of it...

Which is humorous given what you said about wrong usage of Agile. Case in point?

[reichertjalex]

> "We need to know what 'done' looks like."

Ugh, yes... I wish I had internalized this sooner!

[daelon]

> agita

Interesting word, thank you!

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Lots of folks of Italian ancestry, around here.

I hear the word used, often.