[refurb]

Is it wrong for people to voice views that you disagree with? The value of HN is hearing differing view points.

It would be nice if people on HN tried to engage in a good willed nature rather than treating discussions like a struggle session.

But to the topic at hand, in rapidly changing sectors, high levels of friction when it comes to employment has a cost. There is no free lunch in economics.

When hiring employees means you’re hiring them effectively for life, it creates disincentives for hiring. Maybe you hiring consultants instead. Or maybe you make do and not hire at all.

No doubt it benefits employees when it comes to job stability. But the cost can be not having those jobs at all. That’s something that has to be considered in the equation.

The other thing is the employee obligations it creates. When I worked in Europe I had to give three months notice to quit. Either that or pay the company the equivalent of the salary I made. As an employee it was a penalty I couldn’t afford and thus opportunities at start ups that needed someone now were out of reach. Employee protections had a real cost to me.

It’s pretty clear that Europe as a whole is willing to pay that cost, but it’s a choice.

Nothing wrong with that, but one can’t make that choice then turn around and wonder why your innovative sectors are lagging other countries.

[snowpid]

The problem on such discussion that many Americans (I am not sure if you are but experience says yes you're) tend to use only straw man arguments (and that's why the reason they are ignored) "When hiring employees means you’re hiring them effectively for life, it creates disincentives for hiring. "

In Germany it is not the case.

"The other thing is the employee obligations it creates. When I worked in Europ" Europe is a big place and working law in the EU (and outside too!) is in the charge of national law. Where have you been living ?

In Germany you can talk to company to quit earlier because these quitting comworkers tend to be rather unproductive.

[lazide]

How is it not the case in Germany?

The only German tech company I’m aware of was a fintech which was a massive fraud that collapsed on itself.

[braabe]

The 6th largest Software-Provider in the World (SAP) is probably the most notable global german software firm. Deutsche Telekom, maybe. As far as I am aware, there are some bigger gaming companies as well. But this is, of course, a singular counterexample.

Germany has a large "Mittelstand", so medium sized companies and much stronger antitrust/cartell-laws. One could argue, that the lack of extremly large tech-companies is, for better or worse, by design.

Wirecard was a disaster for a multitude of reasons: The company itself [lost|stole|defrauded] a billion euros, their auditors (Ernst&Young, now "EY") failed to notice a billion euros of irregularities and lost their auditing license over the debacle. The german banking authorities failed in some capacity I cannot remember right now.

[com]

The BaFin regulatory failure was pretty spectacular too, despite the lid that the German establishment tried to put on it. Not so much has leaked out so far, mainly because prosecutors have declined to take much action against the regulator or its employees and officers, however what is known is pretty damning.

First, they ignored early - like TEN YEARS - and relatively continuous warnings about fraud at Wirecard.

Then they legally targeted journalists who pointed out misconduct at Wirecard (!!!)

Then they banned short-sellers from shorting Wirecard (!!!!!!) and indeed in internal memos mentioned that short-sellers were Israelis and British citizens in some kind of bigoted justification for the ban. Gross and disgusting, but perhaps par for the course in some levels of the government there.

They tried to cover up malfeasance within their own org, including at least one, but probably more employees undertaking insider trades on Wirecard before its failure.

But don’t be too worried about the poor chauffeur-driven bureaucrats at BaFin!

They’ve since reorganised and added more senior employees to an already bloated and ineffectual regulator who are culturally in bed with the regulated entities.

The gravy train must continue.

(Just reviewing what happened through internet searches has caused steam to come out of my ears again. What the actual fuck was BaFin doing all those years?)

[imtringued]

I don't know why you are interested in a niche BaaS/Investment bank. The customer facing "fintech" is N26 and they used Wirecard as a BaaS(banking as a service) provider before they had their own banking license. If you are interested in another BaaS then checkout SolarisBank instead.

We also have our own fancy pants multi billion dollar delivery companies like "Delivery Hero/Lieferheld" or Zalando that Silicon Valley types are so fond of.

SoundCloud is a German startup. So is ResearchGate.

Or how about Hello fresh that so many English speaking YouTubers tend to have sponsorships with?

By the way I was mostly trying to think of Silicon Valley esque startups with a strong internet presence. The moment you talk about things like semiconductors, digital twins, robotics, basically any manufacturing related technology, Germany has a long list of major "tech" companies. I know, I know "tech" is actually American slang for software, not hardware, technology but still.

[snowpid]

Yeah, Such rage bait argument with no real arguments don't help to improve my perception.

[lazide]

Care to reply with opposing facts? Literally the only German tech firm of note I’m aware of is [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirecard_scandal].

Do you have some opposing examples?

[Aeolun]

You are literally aware of a single German company and because of this you assume what is true for them is true for all German companies, nay, all of Europe?

[snowpid]

I'm mean you can Google it. I expect more from a random HN user.

[Timon3]

What about SAP?

[lazide]

lol. The German cope is strong here.

It doesn’t generally get included for the same reason IBM doesn’t typically get included in list of ‘tech companies’, even if they are one of the oldest actual tech companies.

Been around forever (70’s or earlier), large multinational, more about business integration and sales than any headline tech. Frankly, their tech has been a side thought for a very long time internally. It’s a blue chip that happens to involve tech, not a ‘tech company’ like any of the FAANGs. Same issue Tata/Wipro, etc. have IMO. Arguably Oracle falls in the same class too.

A parallel comment mentioned Deutsch Telecom, but they’re really not a ‘tech company’ anymore than T-Mobile, AT&T, Comcast, etc. are.

If we include it anyway, that gives Germany 2 and the US…. Several dozen? Minimum? Maybe 50ish, actually. Even if we don’t use the same broad criteria in the US.

If we use the same broad criteria in the US, probably 1/3 of the Fortune 500 qualify, if not more. Is Bank of America a ‘tech company’?

[tovej]

That is unbelievable to me. You always have the right to quit, and penalties are rare. The laws depend on the country you're in of course, but I've never heard of three months, and I've lived in Europe my whole life.

Would you mind sharing the country you were working in?

[vidarh]

In Norway, 3 months notice is the norm, and you can be expected to work it. In practice, there's rarely much value in holding people to it (though it can happen) because someone who really doesn't want to be there isn't going to be a productive employee. But lots of people do stay the 3 months because people looking to hire are also used to often having to wait 3 months to get someone on full time.

[jokethrowaway]

It's pretty common to have penalties if you quit without notice. It's also a breach of contract. Employers probably won't go after you in court though, unless your immediate departure cause them some damage larger than the lawyer's bill.

One month is common for juniors or contractors. I've never seen a contract with less than 1 month notice in tech. Three months is common for senior or management positions.

[Aeolun]

I’ve only ever seen one month in both Europe and Japan. With no stipulated penalties for leaving immediately (beyond, you know, being an a*).

[pathsjs]

I am Italian and at my previous work at a bank, I had a two month notice (originally one, but increased with seniority). As far as I know, it is pretty common in Italy, and employers know that when they hire someone, the person will only join one to three months later due to this - or sometimes they offer to pay the penalty

[seritools]

In Germany the minimum time of notice for being fired scales up with your seniority (number of years employed in the company). However, many work contracts add a stipulation that the minimum time of notice from the law be applied to both parties equally, so quitting will also need an advance notice of the same length.

[soneil]

My previous contract (Ireland) was 3 months - it was reciprocal, so they had to give me 3 months notice to quit, and I had to give them 3 months notice to quit.

Due to the position "garden leave" was the most typical way to spend those 3 months, so it wasn't much of a real-world concern.

[ubersnack]

In England I had a 3 month notice period at a previous employer, luckily the employer I was going to was okay with waiting that amount of time.