[surgical_fire]

> You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary.

Yes. And I appreciate those labor protections enough that I gladly pay for them.

I could still buy a car, a house, raise a family, have some savings, etc.

The stability and security provided by the labor protections are very much appreciated, a lot more than some extra cash would be.

[nudgeee]

That, and the peace of mind of not being fired at-will when economic times aren’t so good.

[ekianjo]

this also means companies are much more hesitant to hire

[consp]

Having short term contracts solved this a long time ago and is mostly a fallacy.

[Leherenn]

Short term contracts have pretty big downsides though. It's basically impossible to get a mortgage on a short term contract, or more generally any kind of loan. Even renting is difficult.

That's why many EU countries have pretty strict limitations on short term contracts, like how many you can do in a row. It results in a huge reliance on contractors.

[lazide]

Short term contracts are basically taking the entirety of the ‘shit’ end of the stick for someone else, and are way worse than the median tech job in the US conditions wise.

[refurb]

How is a short term contract a solution? It sounds like you don’t have a job at the end of the contract?

[lazyasciiart]

Yes, but you know when that will happen.

[lazide]

Soon. Maybe, since it could get renewed eh?

The US also has contractors.

[ekianjo]

nope. you dont invest the same way in a 6 month contractor that you are not sure to renew down the road as you would for a full time employee. And this goes both ways. The contractor has not much incentive to perform well either.

[Timon3]

> And this goes both ways. The contractor has not much incentive to perform well either.

Can you explain your thoughts here a bit further? The short term contract can be renewed or replaced with a full time contract. This should provide extra incentive to perform well compared to a full time employee (who doesn't have to worry about either), as long the as the company is a good employer.

[johnnyanmac]

>The short term contract can be renewed or replaced with a full time contract.

As someone in games, this is exactly the road to getting exploited. "If I work harder and really wow them with this feature, I could get full time work!" meanwhile, there were plans to not renew anyone at the end of the project and to lay off full time workers. But you get a convinient carrot to lure starry-eyed devs with

Your "as long as the company is a good employer" is doing Atlas levels of lifing here.

[madeofpalk]

I would rather companies be a lot more deliberate about hiring people rather than just hiring and firing willy nilly.

[littlestymaar]

Employment figures for Ireland or Germany aren't far from their US counterpart.

And on the other hand, the French government dramatically loosened the rules around layoffs in 2016 (you can let people go as soon as you have a decline in sales over a few month, a negative cash flow over the same period, if their are new competitors on your market, or even just if there's technological change in your sector that justifies getting rid of people). It was 8 years ago and it has had little to no impact on France's unemployment, which is still very high.

[johnnyanmac]

I'd rather go through a bigger hoop one time every 10 years or more than the current circus of being let go every 2-3 years and needing to re-interview. The latter just means I spend part of my free time worrying about the next job hop by studying trivia, instead of doing something I actually like to do.

[wkat4242]

So what. Getting jobs isn't a problem here, on the contrary.

[surgical_fire]

Ehh, this is bullshit. Companies will hire when they need.

It actually makes companies more hesitant to fire.

[ekianjo]

more hesitant to fire means they are more hesitant to hire. that 100% goes together.

[caskstrength]

> I could still buy a car, a house, raise a family, have some savings, etc.

You are an outlier. Very few SDEs in EU can afford to raise a family in their own SFH on a single salary while living in a location with any notable IT jobs market.

[badpun]

In Poland, it's not hard. I suspect some other EE countries are similar. Western Europe is harder, with high marginal tax rates and super-expensive real estate.

[surgical_fire]

> You are an outlier

No I am definitely not.

In every company I worked for, in three different countries, my coworkers were in similar situations.

[Iulioh]

And the money is not the only problem, Europe is CHEAP compared to America, it's fascinating.

I heard that wges are less than 50% but you end up saving more

[rsynnott]

This actually used not be the case. About six years ago I was in San Francisco for work, and was surprised how inexpensive it was. Like, it wasn’t cheap, but I’d heard it talked up as basically the most expensive place in the world, and it was largely cheaper than Dublin.

Going back recently, it’s a _lot_ more expensive; home has gotten more expensive too, but not at the same rate.

(Some of this is due to the currency thing, of course; the dollar was about as weak as it ever got post-financial crisis in 2018.)

[maccard]

Your mistake there is comparing to Dublin - I live in an expensive Uk city (Edinburgh) and it’s just incredible how expensive going home to Dublin is.

The other bit is that you’re comparing living in Dublin to visiting SF. Rental prices in SF make Dublin seem cheap. You’re still probably financially better off living in SF as an engineer, but I’d rather the quality of life of Ireland/Europe

[rsynnott]

Oh, sure, like I’m not saying SF was ever _cheap_, but it used to be in the same range of cost as Dublin (a very expensive European city); now it’s way more expensive.

> Rental prices in SF make Dublin seem cheap

Oh, yeah, they definitely do _now_, but pre-Covid it wasn’t as clear-cut.

> You’re still probably financially better off living in SF as an engineer

I think even that probably isn’t totally clear at this stage. If you’re in Big Tech(TM), you’re probably getting on the order of 60-70% pay in Dublin that you’d get in the same role in the same company in Silicon Valley (there’s some variation, but that’s about the usual ratio). If you have to pay SF rent or mortgage (plus property tax) with that, then you may not come ahead. If you can afford to buy outright or with a small mortgage, you’re probably doing better in SF, but even most big tech workers can’t afford that.

(I think the pay gap probably is bigger outside big tech, tho)

[caskstrength]

> I heard that wges are less than 50% but you end up saving more

Curios regarding how you came up with that conclusion. After paying rent, taxes and buying some groceries from EU senior engineer's ~80k you will generally have enough to maybe buy a new smartphone at the end of the year, not any meaningful amount of savings.

[raverbashing]

Honestly, true. But possibly not in the way people imagine

People see the difference in wages, but what they miss is a) the amount of fees and extra expenses they have to pay that escape cost of living calculations, b) the "natural" lifestyle inflation that comes with living in the US (maybe summed up by the word consumerism), c) some size/low density related inefficiencies and d) things like educational costs

Now, yes Europe makes it hard on itself a lot by being dumb (see HS2 costs soaring off or the failed German energy policy - not against renewable but their fee structure is stupid)

[mschuster91]

> Europe is CHEAP compared to America, it's fascinating.

Yup. Cost of living is insanely low compared to the US, even when just comparing hotbeds like Silicon Valley vs London/Berlin/Munich, with the largest factor being housing. Additionally, healthcare costs are far lower as well - there is no such thing as co-pays, surprise bills and whatnot here (although I do admit some things like dental and vision care aren't covered by insurance, but generally still affordable).

[brabel]

Interesting, but as someone who visits the USA sometimes for short work/tourist trips, food and drinks are much cheaper pretty much anywhere except maybe California. And because that's most of what you spend on during short trips, not counting hotels (which are about the same price as Europe) to me the USA is a paradise of cheap drinks and large meals :D (but yeah, Europe wins on quality).