[larrys]

"Forgive potential ignorance here"

"Don't get me wrong; I think Joel has a lot of good ideas in general"

The saying that comes to mind is perhaps the following. "Those who can, do, those who can't teach." I'm guessing that Joel, by his writings, is a combination of the two and as a result his output is not "rockstar" quality.

Another example might be Steve Blank. Who no doubt achieved more fame as a teacher then he ever did creating anything.

There is obviously quite a value in people who can do both in varying degrees.

[drharris]

Indeed; and my post was never intended to belittle Joel himself. He has provided great value to the industry in both capacities. I'm mainly challenging the notion that if he truly hires only developers he considers to be rockstars, then why doesn't the company have a more compelling domain than bug tracking and PM?

[rwallace]

Choosing a good domain is a challenge in itself, quite separate from executing well once the choice is made. Programmers who don't explicitly tackle that challenge will tend to drift into writing stuff they would use themselves, which obviously means going where the low-hanging fruit has been scoured terribly clean; looked at that way, it is a testimony to Fog Creek's execution skills that they can stay in business at New York living costs at all.

[larrys]

Well that certainly has to do with both business sense as well as the risk taking ability and what he feels comfortable with.

To do something compelling you have to want to take that risk (which could result in spectacular success or failure). Joel might not want to bite off more than he can chew or he simply might not be creative enough to come up with anything "more compelling domain than bug tracking and PM".

That is why a good programmer needs to be around good business people (add: as well as people with ideas and a feel for the marketplace). They are two different skills. Same with medicine. Doctors specialize. You don't find that someone is the best thoracic surgeon and world famous also does urology. Maybe he also dables in photography but he's not going to be as good as Ansel Adams who does it full time. Business is a skill and takes full time attention. So does programming.

Look at PG. Running YC is a full time job. While he can certainly do programming on the side now and maybe write a book you're not going to tell me he can do all three better than a specialist who can devote full attention.

[randomdata]

That is why a good programmer needs to be around good business people

Partnering with a business person for my next venture is something I'd like to try, but it's not exactly clear where you find a good business person who wants to partner up. The business people I am in contact with are already busy with their own things.

Unlike a programer who might be presently doing the 9-5 corporate job, it seems like a good business person will always be busy doing their own businesses, as that is what business people do.

I have been mulling over something in particular as of late, but I presently don't have much interest in building it if I'm also going to be responsible for selling it. A partner seems like it would be a good fit.

[larrys]

"where you find a good business person who wants to partner up"

My first question would be to ask you where you are located? Not sure if you want to reveal a specific city or not. Where you are matters.

"The business people I am in contact with are already busy with their own things."

True. Which is why you need to be somewhere where there is a chance of meeting people who are in between, recently graduated etc. There is also the possibility of someone who is employed full time starting to help and give advice on the side. When/if the venture takes off they would feel more secure in leaving their permanent job.

"it seems like a good business person will always be busy doing their own businesses, as that is what business people do."

You only need to find one person (it's like getting married). There are of course compatibility issues as well to consider.

"have much interest in building it if I'm also going to be responsible for selling it."

If you build it and it makes sense from a business perspective and have a prototype you can attract that one or two people you need. With just an idea of course you can't. Care to elaborate on the idea at all?

[randomdata]

My first question would be to ask you where you are located?

Rural Canada, which I assume does not bode well. There's certainly no startup scene, so to speak.

Where you are matters.

Which is unfortunate because one thing that has always excited me about software in particular is that it democratizes location. I've had the opportunity to work with some amazing organizations from around the world without having to be physically present for any of them.

If you build it and it makes sense from a business perspective and have a prototype you can attract that one or two people you need. With just an idea of course you can't. Care to elaborate on the idea at all?

That's fair. I've built "hundreds" of prototypes before. Some I've come to realize are simply bad ideas, others I've decided were still good and were taken to market with some mediocre success. In those cases I have felt were limited due to my lack of business acumen. What is not clear to me is where to go even after a prototype has been made and still shows merit.

I don't mind sharing the idea, but after some further research I discovered some companies who are already working on pretty exactly what I had envisioned, so I'll spare you the details. Though I do appreciate your advice in general as there are millions of other problems that need to be solved so it will no doubt come up again.

[saraid216]

> a more compelling domain

I think this gets to the heart of your bias. "Bug tracking and PM" is not compelling to you, but I suspect Joel and his hires find it a lot more fascinating than you do.

[larrys]

""Bug tracking and PM" is not compelling to you"

Not to answer someone else but I think what the parent means is that it's not original, unique, or greatly improving on whatever is already out there. (Is it?)

I mean it's kind of meat and potatoes addressing a problem that has been addressed and maybe doing it better.

Let me state that while I can program I am certainly not a programmer. But from my perspective it seems that Fog Creek, while a great company is not the place that a world class programmer would go to work on world class software. I mean this as no disrespect to Joel (who I admire greatly) or what he has done.

Using an analogy if you want to be in law enforcement are you going to work for the local big city police department or try to work for the secret service or the FBI?

[saraid216]

What would you say about people working on search algorithms at Google? Is that prestigious enough for you to call it world class? Because that seems like an addressed problem and maybe doing it only a little better.

> Using an analogy if you want to be in law enforcement are you going to work for the local big city police department or try to work for the secret service or the FBI?

Do tell me what makes the FBI or the Secret Service more "compelling", "original", or "unique" than a "local big city police department". Because I see law enforcement, full stop. Not Swanky Law Enforcement versus Ghetto Law Enforcement.