[jldugger]

It keeps bouncing between too real and too absurd.

Absurd: Not enough power on our sailboat to run Ableton and Photoshop.

Real: So we replaced it with open source technology.

Absurd: That technology was based on Electron.

Real: Electron was too bloated.

Absurd: So we ported everything over to the NES.

Real: And now you can run our software anywhere you can emulate an NES

[Avshalom]

everything about it reinforces the feeling that it's all just retroactive justification for finding a toy they made more fun than expected

ETA: to be clear there's nothing wrong with making a toy and then turning that toy into it's own all-consuming hobby (TTRPGs for example) and one of the best parts of programming is how easy it is to do just that. It's just kind of annoying watching people wax rhapsodic about nonsense instead of copping to "yeah we're having a lot of fun, i feel like a kid again"

[packetlost]

fwiw they actually live on a sailboat and have sporadic internet access and limited electricity, so saying it's retroactive justification isn't really true and minimizes the real problems they face.

[lannisterstark]

The problem is that none of their problems are real problems and there's nothing to minimize when they're not real. You cannot minimize made up first world problems

[ForHackernews]

No, they really do live on a sailboat with intermittent power and internet access. Unless you take "made up" to mean "as a result of their choices" these are real problems, and ironically enough not problems faced by most people in the first world.

https://checkpointgaming.net/features/2020/05/making-games-a...

[graynk]

> Unless you take "made up" to mean "as a result of their choices"

Not the original poster, but that’s my view exactly. If you impose the limitations upon yourself then it’s not really a “problem” for you, is it now. You just can afford to make your life shittier for an “experience” to then have fun solving the issues you’ve created for yourself

[digging]

Then say "constraints" if it feels better. To me, this conversation comes off as much more of a manufactured problem than idealistic people living on a boat and figuring out how to make tech work for them.

Edit: However, upon reading further comments, I don't want this to be seen as a defense of the group against actual complaints.

[Bluestein]

One of the (many) fascinating things here is that - even if by virtue of their 'self-imposed' stringencies - their output showcases production values that are very applicable throughout.-

[packetlost]

Problems created by lifestyle choices are still real problems.

[fao_]

> , so saying it's retroactive justification isn't really true and minimizes the real problems they face.

I wouldn't call any of the listed problems "real problems" in the context of my long winded disability and homelessness lmao. I used to be in their community, the mods, and indirectly, them, were abusive as hell. Their community is, last I heard, hemorrhaging queer folk (or maybe it's bled dry and queer folk just don't stick around there anymore!) because they have repeatedly shielded abusive members and placed them in positions of power, and ignored, silenced, and ejected their victims when they finally kicked up a fuss about it. Part of the move from an internal chat to Mastodon was specifically so it would take the pressure off them having to actively perform any sort of moderation duty or deal with the abusive people directly.

They are, fundamentally, rich people playing at being poor and living in a tiny sustainable island while the rest of the world burns. Their stuff is very interesting, sure, but stating "real problems they face" ignores the fact that every one of the problems they are facing are ones that they themselves have created. I actually really love some of the things they've come out with, but it's important that all of their work comes with the context that it was formed in, at least in my opinion.

edit: I forgot about the 'cult' thing... they are absolutely a cult. at least one of their members made explicit reference multiple times to being part of a cult and it was never actively denied outside of a "well, not yet, we don't have the numbers ;)" kind of thing.

[rrix2]

Wow, you're the first person I've seen speak up about having similar experiences with them as me, thank you. I was a merveilles member some years back until I had some really rude/abusive interactions in IRC from Devine and a prominent moderator. I really would love to play with uxn and varvara but gosh I simply refuse to be around people like that.

[fao_]

Honestly, adding your voice here is incredibly kind; and likewise, I'm so grateful to hear of another with this sort of experience.

Their design sensibilities are very good, and I feel exactly the same -- it just... doesn't sit right, feels bitter, somehow, to create things with their tools, in the full context of everything.

I've often mulled over starting up a little group sharing some of the same sensibilities but without the toxicity, to be honest.

[Bluestein]

If the single voice of just some random, well meaning guy on the internet helps: Go ahead and get going. We need more "groups", projects, efforts, initiatives, approaches, not less. Go for it.-

[shevekofurras]

Thanks for writing this. It matches my experience 100%. I just signed up to comment because I know people will desperately want it to not be true but there are plenty of us ex-mervilles folk out there who've experienced the cult element and abuse, we just don't talk about it.

[exitb]

Is this the right forum for accusations lacking evidence? We appear to be very reluctant about it, if it’s someone like Sam Altman, but it’s just fine for random developers?

[packetlost]

Do you have anything I can review to see for myself? This is the first I've heard of any of this.

[fao_]

I have logs of some interactions stored somewhere, but they're very patchy and stored in plain text. They also contain personal interactions between server members, so I would not feel comfortable releasing them (I also lack any way to get in touch to obtain consent for releasing the logs!)

I do not have logs of direct messages because it escaped my intention -- while I planned to get them, that never happened. At the time, I was lied to and told I would be able to return, and then 3 months later I was informed I was not going to be able to return to the space. They also did not inform anyone that I was leaving, either. I had long friendships with many in that slack instance, and not only would they not know where to find me, but none of them were informed that I had even left -- as far as any of them know, I ghosted them. There was absolutely zero transparency of moderation both at the time, and as far as I am aware, to this day.

Something I forgot to mention in the above is that at the time they had a code of conduct, and this code of conduct listed a two strike system, along with a resolution system. Neither of these were followed in any capacity (likely because they didn't exist), and there was never any communication by the moderators that I had had strikes raised against me.

[Sabinus]

I'm very surprised to read this, considering both authors of the linked article use they/them pronouns.

[defrost]

The thing to understand about minorities, the disabled, queer and alphabet folk is that they are human beings just like everyody else.

Ergo: some of them are actual arseholes.

Oscar Pistorius was an abusive murdering douchebag, not just a brave para olympic gold medal winning runner.

[spondylosaurus]

Indeed. And even within a group that shares some core identity across one axis (e.g., queer people), the usual fraught hierarchies have a way of establishing themselves—unless you really make a point of preventing that from happening.

The ones who are wealthy will hold relative power over the ones who aren't. The ones in good health may neglect or actively exclude the ones who aren't. Racism and xenophobia rear their ugly heads. And so on.

[otabdeveloper4]

Shieet, glad to know all it takes to be a doubleplus good person in Current Year is using an approved pronoun. Makes everything much easier.

[consteval]

No that's not what they mean. They mean you'd kind of assume someone who identifies as queer, or is at least knowledgeable enough on the community to participate in some ways, wouldn't be homophobic.

In practice this isn't the case, because you can use this as a shield. So for homophobic people it might be advantageous to enter the community in a way that causes the least amount of personal friction. Like, simply putting pronouns in your bio and doing literally nothing else is trivial - but the social benefit is not.

It's a big problem, because people who ARE non-binary or ARE bisexual or whatever then get a ton of backlash. Because those identities are the most common to be commandeered, so to speak. At least online.

[Almondsetat]

The problem with identifying the goodness of people by their use of pronouns is that, surprise surprise, empty words good person does not make

[digging]

Yes, well, that's not what anyone is doing. Here is the logic that caused surprise:

1. Leaders identify with nonbinary pronouns,

2. thus: leaders appear to be members of the/a queer community,

3. and: queer community members tend to center queer people/experiences (regardless of whether said members are shitty people for any reason),

4. yet: the leaders are specifically harming and driving out queer members of their community. This is unexpected. Not "wow, this should be impossible" unexpected, just "damn, this shouldn't have happened" unexpected.

It's quite simple and straightforward.

As an aside, (and I know I'll get downvoted for my tone, but it is what it is), for ye straight commenters: consider that your opinions on queerness and queer community dynamics probably aren't very well informed when you're entering conversations about them. (Inspired by but not personally attacking the parent comment. They might be queer too! And their statement is true, it's just off the mark in this context.)

[strawhatguy]

You may be right about all that. Sad to hear, but not altogether unexpected.

I'll just point out though that most problems of the world are ones we ourselves have created.

[Avshalom]

UXN/Varvava don't do anything about relieving those pain points. WRT electricity it actually adds to the pain.

[whywhywhywhy]

I mean its all quite obviously a larp but it's what makes their work interesting.

[mplewis]

They could solve these problems by not living on a sailboat.

[s1artibartfast]

There are solutions you want, and solutions you dont want.

Every personal problem has at least one easy solution. better ones take more effort.

[smilingsun]

It's a bit like saying: People climbing a mountain can solve their mountain-climbing problems by not climbing mountings.

Also not unlike: It's not the destination, it's the journey.

[RamRodification]

It's a bit like saying that having to climb mountains is a problem when you choose to be a mountain climber.

[jauntywundrkind]

Living on a sailboat approaches some very very hard life/existential pinnacles that most people never even attempt to climb.

Yeah, you can have a simple regular life; that's lower on problems maybe. But man, sailing around & futzing with interesting barefoot developers projects sure sounds challenging in a lot of very very excellent ways.

[photonthug]

Satellite internet is expensive, let’s all move down town! Housing in the city is expensive, let’s all move to sailboats! So you see at some point you have to address difficulties with some kind of approach besides avoiding them

[jldugger]

"We choose to make this video game and do the boat life thing, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win!"

[Bluestein]

Nice JFK you pulled there.-

[lomase]

Living in a boat is not hard.

[Almondsetat]

Sure, if you live on a boathouse on a British river in front of the supermarket

[yawpitch]

Having spent a pandemic locked down in a boat, I beg to differ.

[klardotsh]

Spoken like someone who has never lived on a boat before.

Signed, someone who has lived on a boat before.

[subpub47]

Funny, I was about to say the same thing about most "modern" tech.

[Bluestein]

Exactly my feeling.-

PS. Which leads me - tangentially - to think that (maybe) the solution to (at least) some of our problems might someday be found in a cult :)

Who knows ...

> Absurd: So we ported everything over to the NES.

This was grand. The NES as a most effective "baseline" platform. Can totally see humanity sending out an NES emulator on Voyager VI as a last gasp.-

[bee_rider]

This is now my headcanon for why the UI of super advanced computers in 80’s sci-fi movies looks the way it does.

[Bluestein]

Good call :)

"8 bit 'looks' and hardware constitutes - and 'looks like' - some optimum as far as computing is concerned"

... so sufficiently advanced systems will look like it to interface with us as a sort of lingua franca.-

AGIs. Alien probes. The works. They will all look to us like a C64 or NES would :)

[medstrom]

It's like how you can say that VT100 emulation has an expiration date, but you can't say that about the underlying concept of some UI based on a screenful of monospaced text, which is immortal.

[throwup238]

> PS. Which leads me - tangentially - to think that (maybe) the solution to (at least) some of our problems might someday be found in a cult :)

The major religions have been beating that dead horse for a long time.

[yawpitch]

And then resurrecting it.

[Bluestein]

(I See what you did here :)

[BalinKing]

I apologize for an off-topic question, but I'm curious why you choose to write "." as ".-". Is it an internet convention I'm unaware of, or maybe punctuation from a language other than English?

[Bluestein]

No problem, thanks.-

Please, vid.:

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40989221

[wizzwizz4]

LessWrong had some pretty good advice in the early months of the pandemic, despite their terrible track record on politics and AI. There's a lot right with the Amish. You could write an entire book about the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Cults can have a lot to offer.

[Bluestein]

> Cults can have a lot to offer.

... in no small part perhaps because they remain isolated "pockets" of culture where - often - "progress" is slower or more controlled. Where idiosyncratic behavior becomes the "new" orthodoxy as behavior or culture "degrades".-

Where was it ... "Nightfall" (the novel) I think it was where a cult periodically saves civilization - by being the only ones that know how to handle the aftermath.-

[kragen]

cults are generally the only way to solve deep-rooted problems. otherwise people's habits are too strong and they keep reproducing the existing traditions that create the problems through unexamined avenues

technically varvara isn't actually the nes

[Bluestein]

> cults are generally the only way to solve deep-rooted problems.

Now that's an interesting proposition (which, I do not contend mind you ...)

[yard2010]

The real question stands still - how can I join your cult?

[Bluestein]

Seconded.-

Make it a thousand rabbits. Make it a flotilla. Make it an armada ... :)

[VyseofArcadia]

I think the general thesis statement is, "there are very few things we do today that couldn't have been done on older hardware".

[Bluestein]

Which, holds (?)

PS. Except for AI, perhaps ...

... I was going to add certain forms of cryptography to that, but then realized that we've always have had some sort of cryptography that was "hardware-appropriate" (ie. sufficiently hard to break, to be useful) for the age. So older hardware was just fine ...

[medstrom]

Any crypto you did couldn't be future-proof in the way it is today though. Don't know if that's mainly due to better algorithms or from the fact modern CPUs are optimized to rapidly decrypt/encrypt things.

[fluoridation]

It was algorithms. Back in the 90s there was no AES or ECC. There was RSA, and it was feasible to generate long keys, but it was impractical. Keys from back then could probably be easily factored nowadays. I think the spread of the Internet pushed demand for longer keys and better (more secure and efficient) algorithms.

[samatman]

Just because I was there (I agree with your general point) I wanted to say that I made my first PGP key in 1995 and it was a 4096 byte one, which is just as uncrackable now as it was then. I even remember being vaguely confused, because it gave you options, and I was thinking to myself "wut. Who wants the weaker-than-necessary key. I'll take the big one, thx"

[fluoridation]

Interesting. How long did it take to sign? Also, though I wasn't sure (which is why I didn't mention it), I thought one of the reasons keys were so short back then was due to the US classifying encryption algorithms as munitions, which made working with actually secure encryption standards difficult for developers. I would have expected the longest key would be 1024 bits, at a stretch. Even that is barely crackable today.

[tomooot]

Neural nets using individual tubes as nodes? Although the current trend seems to be quantizing down to a minimal amount of bits to process more in parallel, in an analogue system you could have a near "continuous" range of values.

[imp0cat]

    Chat rooms and bare bones text editors aren't supposed to be process-heavy, and yet the popular communication platform Slack requires outrageous amounts of ram and CPU to function. [...] Making software this way is costly to off-grid users, or those on slow connections, [...]

So true.

[jcgrillo]

Slack had a good solution in the form of an IRC bridge but of course they killed it.

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

Yep. When you're small, cooperate, when you're big, kick everyone else out

[Bluestein]

Moat, then drawbridge removal.-

[BizarroLand]

Embrace, Expand, Extinguish

[bitwize]

It could be worse. One word: Urbit.

What the boat couple is doing strikes me as the most romantic sort of bricolage and just gives me the warm fuzzies all over. But Urbit just pisses me off for a variety of reasons.

[worldsayshi]

I think you need to have the right mix of the absurd when you try to make something interesting.

[anthk]

I think they used Krita first. But UXN isn't restricted to small res art/screens. Look at oquonie.