[Avshalom]

everything about it reinforces the feeling that it's all just retroactive justification for finding a toy they made more fun than expected

ETA: to be clear there's nothing wrong with making a toy and then turning that toy into it's own all-consuming hobby (TTRPGs for example) and one of the best parts of programming is how easy it is to do just that. It's just kind of annoying watching people wax rhapsodic about nonsense instead of copping to "yeah we're having a lot of fun, i feel like a kid again"

[packetlost]

fwiw they actually live on a sailboat and have sporadic internet access and limited electricity, so saying it's retroactive justification isn't really true and minimizes the real problems they face.

[lannisterstark]

The problem is that none of their problems are real problems and there's nothing to minimize when they're not real. You cannot minimize made up first world problems

[ForHackernews]

No, they really do live on a sailboat with intermittent power and internet access. Unless you take "made up" to mean "as a result of their choices" these are real problems, and ironically enough not problems faced by most people in the first world.

https://checkpointgaming.net/features/2020/05/making-games-a...

[graynk]

> Unless you take "made up" to mean "as a result of their choices"

Not the original poster, but that’s my view exactly. If you impose the limitations upon yourself then it’s not really a “problem” for you, is it now. You just can afford to make your life shittier for an “experience” to then have fun solving the issues you’ve created for yourself

[digging]

Then say "constraints" if it feels better. To me, this conversation comes off as much more of a manufactured problem than idealistic people living on a boat and figuring out how to make tech work for them.

Edit: However, upon reading further comments, I don't want this to be seen as a defense of the group against actual complaints.

[Bluestein]

One of the (many) fascinating things here is that - even if by virtue of their 'self-imposed' stringencies - their output showcases production values that are very applicable throughout.-

[packetlost]

Problems created by lifestyle choices are still real problems.

[fao_]

> , so saying it's retroactive justification isn't really true and minimizes the real problems they face.

I wouldn't call any of the listed problems "real problems" in the context of my long winded disability and homelessness lmao. I used to be in their community, the mods, and indirectly, them, were abusive as hell. Their community is, last I heard, hemorrhaging queer folk (or maybe it's bled dry and queer folk just don't stick around there anymore!) because they have repeatedly shielded abusive members and placed them in positions of power, and ignored, silenced, and ejected their victims when they finally kicked up a fuss about it. Part of the move from an internal chat to Mastodon was specifically so it would take the pressure off them having to actively perform any sort of moderation duty or deal with the abusive people directly.

They are, fundamentally, rich people playing at being poor and living in a tiny sustainable island while the rest of the world burns. Their stuff is very interesting, sure, but stating "real problems they face" ignores the fact that every one of the problems they are facing are ones that they themselves have created. I actually really love some of the things they've come out with, but it's important that all of their work comes with the context that it was formed in, at least in my opinion.

edit: I forgot about the 'cult' thing... they are absolutely a cult. at least one of their members made explicit reference multiple times to being part of a cult and it was never actively denied outside of a "well, not yet, we don't have the numbers ;)" kind of thing.

[rrix2]

Wow, you're the first person I've seen speak up about having similar experiences with them as me, thank you. I was a merveilles member some years back until I had some really rude/abusive interactions in IRC from Devine and a prominent moderator. I really would love to play with uxn and varvara but gosh I simply refuse to be around people like that.

[fao_]

Honestly, adding your voice here is incredibly kind; and likewise, I'm so grateful to hear of another with this sort of experience.

Their design sensibilities are very good, and I feel exactly the same -- it just... doesn't sit right, feels bitter, somehow, to create things with their tools, in the full context of everything.

I've often mulled over starting up a little group sharing some of the same sensibilities but without the toxicity, to be honest.

[Bluestein]

If the single voice of just some random, well meaning guy on the internet helps: Go ahead and get going. We need more "groups", projects, efforts, initiatives, approaches, not less. Go for it.-

[shevekofurras]

Thanks for writing this. It matches my experience 100%. I just signed up to comment because I know people will desperately want it to not be true but there are plenty of us ex-mervilles folk out there who've experienced the cult element and abuse, we just don't talk about it.

[exitb]

Is this the right forum for accusations lacking evidence? We appear to be very reluctant about it, if it’s someone like Sam Altman, but it’s just fine for random developers?

[packetlost]

Do you have anything I can review to see for myself? This is the first I've heard of any of this.

[fao_]

I have logs of some interactions stored somewhere, but they're very patchy and stored in plain text. They also contain personal interactions between server members, so I would not feel comfortable releasing them (I also lack any way to get in touch to obtain consent for releasing the logs!)

I do not have logs of direct messages because it escaped my intention -- while I planned to get them, that never happened. At the time, I was lied to and told I would be able to return, and then 3 months later I was informed I was not going to be able to return to the space. They also did not inform anyone that I was leaving, either. I had long friendships with many in that slack instance, and not only would they not know where to find me, but none of them were informed that I had even left -- as far as any of them know, I ghosted them. There was absolutely zero transparency of moderation both at the time, and as far as I am aware, to this day.

Something I forgot to mention in the above is that at the time they had a code of conduct, and this code of conduct listed a two strike system, along with a resolution system. Neither of these were followed in any capacity (likely because they didn't exist), and there was never any communication by the moderators that I had had strikes raised against me.

[Sabinus]

I'm very surprised to read this, considering both authors of the linked article use they/them pronouns.

[defrost]

The thing to understand about minorities, the disabled, queer and alphabet folk is that they are human beings just like everyody else.

Ergo: some of them are actual arseholes.

Oscar Pistorius was an abusive murdering douchebag, not just a brave para olympic gold medal winning runner.

[spondylosaurus]

Indeed. And even within a group that shares some core identity across one axis (e.g., queer people), the usual fraught hierarchies have a way of establishing themselves—unless you really make a point of preventing that from happening.

The ones who are wealthy will hold relative power over the ones who aren't. The ones in good health may neglect or actively exclude the ones who aren't. Racism and xenophobia rear their ugly heads. And so on.

[otabdeveloper4]

Shieet, glad to know all it takes to be a doubleplus good person in Current Year is using an approved pronoun. Makes everything much easier.

[consteval]

No that's not what they mean. They mean you'd kind of assume someone who identifies as queer, or is at least knowledgeable enough on the community to participate in some ways, wouldn't be homophobic.

In practice this isn't the case, because you can use this as a shield. So for homophobic people it might be advantageous to enter the community in a way that causes the least amount of personal friction. Like, simply putting pronouns in your bio and doing literally nothing else is trivial - but the social benefit is not.

It's a big problem, because people who ARE non-binary or ARE bisexual or whatever then get a ton of backlash. Because those identities are the most common to be commandeered, so to speak. At least online.

[Almondsetat]

The problem with identifying the goodness of people by their use of pronouns is that, surprise surprise, empty words good person does not make

[digging]

Yes, well, that's not what anyone is doing. Here is the logic that caused surprise:

1. Leaders identify with nonbinary pronouns,

2. thus: leaders appear to be members of the/a queer community,

3. and: queer community members tend to center queer people/experiences (regardless of whether said members are shitty people for any reason),

4. yet: the leaders are specifically harming and driving out queer members of their community. This is unexpected. Not "wow, this should be impossible" unexpected, just "damn, this shouldn't have happened" unexpected.

It's quite simple and straightforward.

As an aside, (and I know I'll get downvoted for my tone, but it is what it is), for ye straight commenters: consider that your opinions on queerness and queer community dynamics probably aren't very well informed when you're entering conversations about them. (Inspired by but not personally attacking the parent comment. They might be queer too! And their statement is true, it's just off the mark in this context.)

[strawhatguy]

You may be right about all that. Sad to hear, but not altogether unexpected.

I'll just point out though that most problems of the world are ones we ourselves have created.

[Avshalom]

UXN/Varvava don't do anything about relieving those pain points. WRT electricity it actually adds to the pain.

[whywhywhywhy]

I mean its all quite obviously a larp but it's what makes their work interesting.

[mplewis]

They could solve these problems by not living on a sailboat.

[s1artibartfast]

There are solutions you want, and solutions you dont want.

Every personal problem has at least one easy solution. better ones take more effort.

[smilingsun]

It's a bit like saying: People climbing a mountain can solve their mountain-climbing problems by not climbing mountings.

Also not unlike: It's not the destination, it's the journey.

[RamRodification]

It's a bit like saying that having to climb mountains is a problem when you choose to be a mountain climber.

[jauntywundrkind]

Living on a sailboat approaches some very very hard life/existential pinnacles that most people never even attempt to climb.

Yeah, you can have a simple regular life; that's lower on problems maybe. But man, sailing around & futzing with interesting barefoot developers projects sure sounds challenging in a lot of very very excellent ways.

[photonthug]

Satellite internet is expensive, let’s all move down town! Housing in the city is expensive, let’s all move to sailboats! So you see at some point you have to address difficulties with some kind of approach besides avoiding them

[jldugger]

"We choose to make this video game and do the boat life thing, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win!"

[Bluestein]

Nice JFK you pulled there.-

[lomase]

Living in a boat is not hard.

[Almondsetat]

Sure, if you live on a boathouse on a British river in front of the supermarket

[yawpitch]

Having spent a pandemic locked down in a boat, I beg to differ.

[klardotsh]

Spoken like someone who has never lived on a boat before.

Signed, someone who has lived on a boat before.

[CamperBob2]

Spoken like someone who has never lived on a boat before.

Or whose boat came equipped with casinos, an Olympic swimming pool, Michelin-starred restaurants, and somebody else footing the bill.

[subpub47]

Funny, I was about to say the same thing about most "modern" tech.