[crusso]

You say that as though it's a moral argument independent of other factors.

Do you really believe that to be the case? If so, why should you disregard other factors like why people got into debt in the first place or how much savers had to sacrifice in their own lives to achieve their savings?

[wazoox]

> You say that as though it's a moral argument independent of other factors.

No, actually it's the fruit of some thinking the structure of our ageing western societies, and the fact that the most egalitarian societies are the happiest.

> Do you really believe that to be the case?

More than ever.

> If so, why should you disregard other factors like why people got into debt in the first place or how much savers had to sacrifice in their own lives to achieve their savings?

You know, I'm part of the 0.1% richest people on this planet (and you too, I suppose). However, I don't like to comfort myself thinking that I worked hard and deserved it, because I'm perfectly conscious that I never did work that hard (like digging shit in some hole) and I didn't really deserve it because my parents, and their parents before were doing pretty well already. I was lifted with the flow and not much else.

It's pretty easy to be under the illusion that as you didn't need that much effort to be what you are, whoever is below you must be a lazy ass, or stupid as a brick. Most of the time, however, they were just less lucky (OK they may be less gifted, or less intelligent, but that shouldn't make anyone deserving a lesser part of it all).

I've heard this song before of "lazy poor" and "hard working risk taking rich", about 1 billion times, and it always comes from people who had it easy. I don't really feel like beating this old horse more.

[crusso]

I'm not interested in the same old argument either. If you don't consider that hard work or decision-making abilities at least factor into the subsequent states of existence in which people find themselves, what good would data points or arguments be? You have a set of experiences or mental filters completely contrary to my own experiences and understanding of how this society works. Go figure.

It's like when I used to discuss religion with my mother-in-law. When she first declared "There isn't a single error in the Lord's Bible", I really should have just smiled and walked away. Anyone who had lived 55 years on the planet and not absorbed the fact that the earth is demonstrably and astoundingly older than 6,000 years wasn't going to be listening to the rest of my so-called "logic".

I'm still curious when I see people express opinions like yours, though.

With all those preconceptions, what kind of affinity would you have with a site like Hacker News that glorifies the success of the entrepreneur? Are you just observing us in preparation for an invasion? :)

[wazoox]

> If you don't consider that hard work or decision-making abilities at least factor into the subsequent states of existence in which people find themselves, what good would data points or arguments be?

Hard work and good decisions are important of course. But there are good "data points" showing that people struggling with difficulties can't make good decisions. And to do hard work, you need to have an environment that allows it; for instance think about these American travellers of the 19th century shocked by Japanese laziness: we quite well know now that Japanese are hardly lazy, but in the 1840 there was simply nothing effective to do. At the individual level, hard work and good decisions matter; at the society level, not that much.

> I'm still curious when I see people express opinions like yours, though.

I find less surprising that people express such opinion as yours, because they usually attribute their own feelings a bit too literally onto others.

> With all those preconceptions, what kind of affinity would you have with a site like Hacker News that glorifies the success of the entrepreneur?

I'm a successful enough entrepreneur (depends upon your metrics of course). And I'll keep my misconceptions rather than John Galt's, if you don't mind.

[eli_gottlieb]

If you don't consider that hard work or decision-making abilities at least factor into the subsequent states of existence in which people find themselves, what good would data points or arguments be?

A single individual's hard work and good decisions don't contribute that much to their individual well-being. Our thriving is largely predicated on millions of people making good decisions and working hard over hundreds of years.