[harryf]

From the post...

> the key insight that the Noah Smiths of the world seem to be missing is that, in today’s world, we artificially elevate labor demand to keep people employed.

To me one learning of COVID and lockdowns is that we're fully capable of meeting all our basic needs with less than 20% of the workforce (which sadly tends also tends to be the lowest paid). In short we don't need everyone to be working for food, shelter, healthcare etc.

Unfortunately, if we take the climate as an example for how we handle a complex and challenging topic like this, we're going to completely fumble UBI and the role work plays in our future culture and society.

It's an incredibly complex problem, simply considering individual vs. national perspectives. And our collective response to the topic is far too reactive and prejudiced to even begin studying it in a sensible way.

We live in a world where businesses have already realised incredible value from the Linux operating system, which was begun by a student living in his mums house, being subsidised by Finnish social security. He then went on to create git, leading to GitHub, which now manages the code for 90% of Fortune 100 companies.

The opportunity is clear but I can't see us being able to untangle this effectively.

[_heimdall]

That may be the crux of it though, people largely don't know what "enough" means.

People aren't okay with having shelter, food, water, and community. We want the smartphones, huge TVs, ridiculously expensive cars, access to fly anywhere in the world, etc. We absolutely could have all the basics cover, and then some, with 20% of the work we all put in today but few people want that world.

[effingwewt]

You forgot about all the people making minimum wage working 40+ hours who can't afford the basics like food and shelter

Because you can cover your necessities with 20% of your income doesn't mean everyone else can.

I know several people on SSI who had to take under the table jobs because their checks wont cover their food and shelter. And that's with food stamps. If they get a regular job they lose their SSI.

Ive got a friend who had to take a part time job dashing after work as a supervisor at my factory.

I think about this stuff when I'm working overtime- how lucky I am to be able to rather than have to find a second job.

I make over 6 figures as an electrician/instrumentation technician. I have a surgery coming up in September that's going to cost me 40k+. Instead of feeling it's so much and all the other things I could use that money for, I try to remind myself I'm blessed to be able to afford it without saving for years. I, again, know people who work full time and don't make that in a year.

[_heimdall]

I was actually thinking about the societal level here rather than any one person's financial situation.

I expect that we could make sure everyone had the basics much more easily if the average person could define what "enough" means for themselves. For one thing, we would be using many fewer resources as a country and would therefore be much better able to make sure the resources we do have would be available. For another, when a person knows what "enough" is for them they may decide to work less when they achieve that goal, leaving those potential paying work hours for the next person that needs the work.

[harimau777]

It feels like people go to far the other way as well. People don't just need shelter, food, water, and community. Things like entertainment, art, and learning are also essential to having a good life.

[_heimdall]

Totally agree here. In my opinion, though, a UBI won't help with those and could actually hurt. We continue to quantify our lives to the point where the government can put a price on the products they deem me to be entitled to.

I'm not totally sold on Iain McGilchrist's specific analogy of the brain hemispheres, but his underlying point is spot on. In his model, we continue to make our world more and more left-brained (analytical) and we're losing the way of seeing the world required for art, community, etc. I expect a UBI would just make that worse, further quantifying our lives and reinforcing the idea that we're all cogs in a machine that can purr like a kitten if we just do as we're told and avoid thinking critically or differently.

[bamboozled]

Unless you can provide some hard figures, that number is probably not really accurate.

I'd say an insane amount of effort would go into all the things around growing food.

I've grown food and built houses and I can tell you, both things required a LOT of work, and if you want to do it efficiently, you need a LOT of good material and tech. None of that stuff falls out of trees. Ask Russians who are now under sanctions.

We now also have climate change, droughts floods and more thrown into that food growing complexity mix. One major famine could wipe out millions.

[_heimdall]

I'd argue that the labor required for growing food and building houses is highly dependent on the scale you are trying to achieve.

Raising enough food for a small family is very doable when you don't spend 40+ hours per week working for the paycheck. Building a small house is definitely a big project, but very doable as long as you aren't attempting to wind the clock all the way back and milling your own lumber. It can be done with a surprisingly small set of tools if the house is reasonably sized and designed with your tools and skills in mind from the beginning.

Is the average person going to build their own 2,500 square foot two-story house and grow enough food to feed everyone? Obviously not. But could a person build a 900 sq ft ranch, have a garden feeding their family, and raise animals for their own meat, dairy, and eggs? They absolutely can, I'm doing it today, and if climate change concerns you the reduced impact on the environment is huge.

[hypercube33]

Sure maybe 20% can run the basics but what about building or growing society?

[HPsquared]

That's not required. So long as it's not falling apart (which it currently is, by the way).

[AnimalMuppet]

Well, what I think we learned from COVID is that a bunch of the jobs that we think of as "bullshit" are really important. Yeah, critical-care nurses are important, we saw that, but we found out that grocery store workers are pretty critical, too. And truck drivers.

For that matter, I was at work a bit ago, using the restroom, and this janitor guy came in and started refilling the toilet paper rolls in the stalls. And it struck me that his job was really important. I don't want to do his job, but I absolutely don't want to work somewhere where nobody does it...