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by eamsen 703 days ago
To add value to society?
1 comments

Why is value needed? How much of it is sufficient for society to function?

Yes, it IS a provocation. Let's go deeper into this question.

> Why is value needed? How much of it is sufficient for society to function?

As much as people want. A subsistence lifestyle is incredibly cheap and accessible; most of us just don't want it.

I think it is because people consuming social value without adding to it leads to division and fracturing of that society.

More simply, value production is needed because value consumption is occurring.

Because I want to live in an interplanetary society with awesome tech and flying cars and holodecks and life extending medicines and who-knows-what-else and we're not going to get there if people are content to sit around in their nondescript 1-person apartments eating pre-packaged meals and the occasional weekly piece of cake and play Call of Duty or watch YouTube all day.
Value production is needed, because the value we produce is fleeting and healthy societies grow.

How much value is needed is determined by the society through a free market.

How much value can a disabled veteran provide to the free market? If that value is zero, should they just lay down and die?

What if they're not a veteran, but just an unfortunate soul with a disability that provides "zero" value?

> How much value can a disabled veteran provide to the free market? If that value is zero, should they just lay down and die?

If you do this you stop getting new veterans. Functionally speaking this is why every society with armies has veteran benefits.

I agree, and I think there are more nuanced and meaningful historical and especially modern reasons we encourage veterans to turn swords to ploughshares.

It’s reasonable to assume that the powers that be may find themselves in situations politically precarious if veterans aren’t able to provide for themselves and those they ostensibly fought for. Veterans know where real and metaphorical bodies are buried, they also know that at a nation scale, the internal problems that face first world nations are usually not logistical, but political. If not for fear of disrupting business interests, UBI in the form of food stamps, housing, and Medicare for all is possible. The veterans know this, because they are fed and housed and medically treated at scale during and after service. However, if everyone receives these same benefits also without service obligations, the ability to offer incentives to service is limited.

UBI is a thorny issue due to the complexities of implementing it piecemeal alongside the already-existing status quo. In some ways, a greenfield solution would be easier, but they call those revolutionary changes revolutions rather than evolutions for good reasons.

Some stray links for food for thought:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

> there are more nuanced and meaningful historical and especially modern reasons we encourage veterans to turn swords to ploughshares

Oh, I always thought it was a reference to the Roman practice of settling veterans on farmsteads [1].

> if everyone receives these same benefits also without service obligations, the ability to offer incentives to service is limited

I'm not sure we could offer VA benefits to every adult without massively raising taxes. (Also, we treat our veterans quite poorly.)

[1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/41342861

I’ve worked with organizations that employ people whose physical or mental condition makes it difficult to obtain/maintain a typical job. In all likelihood the type of work performed (stuffing event participant packets) was a net negative in a small view of value. The folks there seemed pretty happy to do what they did in a supportive setting with other folks who had similar life circumstances. That leads me to believe that there were larger value-concepts at play than what a cash amount can enumerate.

The value that any person can create is principally limited by imagination, not the free market. The wonderful thing about a moderately regulated free market is that the imagination of more people can be used to engage the value creation inherent in every person.

A healthy society produces surplus to provide for those who depend on others. To ensure enough surplus, everyone who is able, should add value.