[johncessna]

I think the expense aspect doesn't dig deep enough. There are plenty of poor countries (and folks) having children. Additionally, being rich and having lots of kids don't usually go hand in hand (admittedly stereotypical)

Not wanting to be poor, or more likely, trading the yearly trip to $insertPlaceHere, eating out on the weekends, or the daily Starbucks, for a new kid, isn't a bad, but 'too expensive' doesn't really describe that situation accurately.

[almatabata]

> I think the expense aspect doesn't dig deep enough.

Agreed, a lot of Nordic countries provide more support to families with children yet they have very similar numbers to countries with worse support. The monetary aspect obviously plays a factor but it cannot explain everything. If you want to change the trend you will have to look at other additional factors as well. Not all factors have the same weight but they all feed into the same trend.

The different narratives around "why would you bring children into this horrible world?" also have an effect. It does not matter that they live better lives than people did in the 13th century. Their reality tunnel will latch onto anything negative to justify why they cannot have kids until things get better. And because they always focus on the negative they will never notice if things improved at all. Things will always look too bleak for them.

It sadly also remains a reality that if a woman gets kids her career will take a hit. This pushes women who care about their careers to delay having children sometimes too long.

The economical factor has easier answers I guess than the other more intangible aspects.

[janalsncm]

Yes, too expensive. In fact I think your “Starbucks and annual vacation” analysis dramatically underestimates the cost of kids.

You need space for kids, meaning your 1 bed apartment isn’t gonna cut it. Look at the cost of housing these days.

You will need to pay for childcare. This could easily be $1000 per month for the first 5 years.

Transportation. You may need to get a larger vehicle. Plus food, clothing, healthcare.

Oh and then there’s tuition costs.

To summarize, this country has done approximately nothing to make childcare more accessible lately and is wondering why kids don’t magically appear.

> There are plenty of poor countries having children

You’ve hit the nail on the head. In an advanced economy, making a worker costs more. We have offloaded this cost onto parents, and wonder why parents aren’t doing it as much.

[darth_avocado]

Let’s not forget, adding dependents on health insurance (even if paid by the employer), the uncountable doctor visits because children are sickness magnets, cost of moving to a more expensive neighborhood if you want better schools, or paying for private one, books, toys, going to Disneyland once in their lifetimes which costs $1000/day for a family of 4, paying for all the hobbies and clubs, and basically all the costs of paying for an extra human being that won’t earn any money for the next 20 years.

Like having kids and making sure they are able to survive adulthood come with two separate sticker prices. And if you’re not going to do the second, might as well not do the first.

[janalsncm]

Yes, definitely. So the “daily latte and beach vacation” is actually more like “a new car every 2 years”.

[schmichael]

> There are plenty of poor countries (and folks) having children.

Does having children impact their earning potential? The US offers a relatively high earning potential, and having children really directly interferes with that. If you don't have high earning potential, having kids may not have an appreciable impact.

Childcare alone can easily cost over $1k/mo. Daily Starbucks and eating out is nothing compared to having kids.

[chasd00]

> Does having children impact their earning potential?

it certainly did in my case. Holding a newborn and realizing an actual life depends on you is good motivation to do what it takes to get better as a whole, earn more, and climb the ladder. It wasn't easy but i'm in a much better financial position with kids than i would be without. I know myself pretty well and i'm sure i'd be in the same apartment doing the same thing day after day year after year like my childless friends. No knock on them but i've grown my income way more than they have and I credit family obligations for forcing my hand.

[taylodl]

Blaming Starbucks and occasionally eating out for people not having children is a moral accusation: you're just too selfish to have children. The people making such claims are assholes and typically are completely ignorant of the financial realities of having children today.

[janalsncm]

At least they should be in the right financial ballpark then. The cost of raising a kid is on the same order of magnitude as buying a new house.

[MattGaiser]

It would be more correct to say that people only want to have kids they can ideally fully provide for, such as with top notch daycare (an example from the article).

I won't have kids if I cannot pay for their post-secondary education. That is clearly not a requirement in poorer countries.

[autoexec]

> Not wanting to be poor, or more likely, trading the yearly trip to $insertPlaceHere, eating out on the weekends, or the daily Starbucks, for a new kid,

If the cost of having and raising a kid was equal to one Starbucks drink a day we wouldn't have this problem. What we have right now in the US is record amounts of household debt (hint: it's not because people have been going on "yearly trip to $insertPlaceHere" and charging it to their VISA), record number of utility shutoffs due to non-pay, record numbers of people who can't afford rent, and skyrocketing child poverty rates.

'too expensive' seems to sum up the situation pretty damn well

[darth_avocado]

> There are plenty of poor countries (and folks) having children.

Actually, worldwide population trends suggest that childbirth rates are dropping across the board. Poverty does have a direct correlation with how many kids you have because access to healthcare, education and financial stability all contribute to you having fewer kids. But as globally those things change for the better, child birth rates will continue to drop.

[floatrock]

So the ol' millennials are having too much avocado toast trope?

[johncessna]

They, and anyone else, is welcome to have as much avocado toast as they'd like. Just don't say that XYZ is unaffordable because their money went to other financial choices.

[meowfly]

I'm an older DINK and I tell people I think having a kid is like buying a boat. It's a luxury good that has variable returns on happiness.

If someone was trying to get me to buy a boat I'd tell them I can't afford it. It's a shortcut to, Why would I spend money on something for "the economy"