[GuB-42]

The dark matter theory is falsifiable. Sure we can't see dark matter (it doesn't interact electromagnetically), but we can see its effects, and it has to follow the laws of physics as we understand them today.

It is actually a satisfying theory with regard to the Occam razor. We don't have to change our laws of physics to explain the abnormal rotations of galaxy, we just need "stuff" that we can't see and yet interact gravitationally. When we have stuff like neutrinos, it is not that far fetched. In fact, though unlikely given our current understanding of physics, dark matter could be neutrinos.

If, as it turn out, the invisible stuff we call dark matter doesn't follow the laws of physics as we know them, then the dark matter theory is falsified and we need a new one (or at least some tweaks). And it may actually be the case as a recent paper claims that gravitational lensing doesn't match the predictions of the dark matter theory.

The main competitor to dark matter is modified gravity, which calls for no new stuff, but changes the equations for gravity. For the Occam razor, adding some random term to an equation is not really better than adding some invisible but well characterized stuff, especially when we consider that the equation in question is extremely well tested. It is, of course, also falsifiable.

The problem right now is not that these theories are unfalsifiable, it is that they are already pretty much falsified in their current form (dark matter less than modified gravity), and some rework is needed.

[beeforpork]

'dark matter' is not a theory, it is the name of an observational problem.

There are many theories to explain dark matter observations. MOND is not a competitor with 'dark matter', because MOND is a theory and it tries to explain some aspects (spiral galaxy rotation) of what is observed as the dark matter problem, which consists of many more observations. There is no competition here. There are other theories to explain dark matter, like dark matter particle theories involving neutrinos or whatever, and these may be called competitors, but dark matter itself is not a theory, but a problem statement.

[XorNot]

Yes and no...MOND's core proposition is that dark matter doesn't exist, and instead modified gravity does.

Whereas you can have many proposals for what dark matter is, provided it is capable of being almost entirely only gravitationally interacting, and there's enough of it.

MOND has had the problem that depending which MOND you're talking about, it still doesn't explain all the dark matter (so now you're pulling free parameters on top of free parameters).

[wavemode]

I've seen this opinion before, but can't seem to square it with any reliable source.

Wikipedia has: "dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter that appears not to interact with light or the electromagnetic field ... Although the astrophysics community generally accepts dark matter's existence, a minority of astrophysicists, intrigued by specific observations that are not well-explained by ordinary dark matter, argue for various modifications of the standard laws of general relativity. These include modified Newtonian dynamics, tensor–vector–scalar gravity, or entropic gravity."

Even its name, "dark matter", sort of strongly implies this. If someone were just trying to refer to the observations, rather than a specific explanation for the observations, wouldn't they just say "abnormal galaxy rotation curves" rather than "dark matter"?

I'm not saying Wikipedia is an end-all-be-all source on this, I'm just asking where you're getting this alternate definition. If it is somewhere reliable then perhaps the article needs to be rephrased.

[andrewflnr]

As far as I know it's from here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbmJkMhmrVI As I said elsewhere in this thread, I think she's trying to make some meta point but ends up just muddying the water.

[andrewflnr]

> For the Occam razor, adding some random term to an equation is not really better than adding some invisible but well characterized stuff...

You're being too kind. It's worse. Especially when (in my understanding anyway) that added term doesn't even explain all the things dark matter does.

[adrian_b]

Adding any finite number of parameters is strictly better than adding an infinity of parameters (i.e. an arbitrary distribution of dark matter chosen to match the observations).

[Dylan16807]

The distribution has to be consistent forward and backwards in time. It's a lot less arbitrary than you're implying, and adding a hundred parameters (or similar finite number) to gravity is not better.

[adrian_b]

If we add an arbitrary amount of dark matter everywhere, to match the observed motions of the celestial bodies, that adds an infinity of parameters, and not even a enumerable one.

This obviously can match almost anything and it has extremely low predictive power (many future observations may differ from predictions, which can be accounted by some dark matter whose distribution was previously unknown), so it is a much worse explanation than a modified theory of gravity that would have only a finite number of additional parameters.

[adgjlsfhk1]

the reason this isn't true is that by the hypothesis of dark matter, it follows gravity but not electromagnetism. as such it only fits distributions recoverable from evolving gravity. e.g. if we require a certain distribution today, it fixes the distribution at all other points in time, and we can use light speed delay to look into the past to verify whether the distributions have evolved according to gravity.

[Retric]

All observations of individual galaxies occur at a specific point in time. We can’t use light speed delay to see the evolution of individual galaxies only completely different galaxies at some other point in time. As such each galaxy gets its own value for the amount of dark matter.

At minimum this is a ~200 billion parameter model, and more if you’re looking at smaller structures.

[andrewflnr]

That's equally true of the distribution of baryonic matter. We have to assess each galaxy individually to figure out what it's made of? What a crime against science. Never mind that they're still all made of a small handful of types of parts, which can nevertheless combine to form lots of possible histories and shapes for individual objects. Just like literally everything else in the observable universe. Seriously, what part of this argument is different for computing the amount of visible mass in each galaxy?

[Retric]

The availability to detect visible light from stars or detect that light being blocked by baryonic matter.

With dark matter it’s two steps removed where we’re inferring the behavior of baryonic matter and then inferring the amount of baryonic matter we aren’t observing and then calculating the existence of dark matter to get that behavior after accounting for undetected baryonic matter.

[andrewflnr]

Yeah, that's a pain, but calculating mass from photons is still pretty indirect. More importantly, and independently of "directness", no one pretends that galaxies having different masses introduces two billion parameters into our models of cosmology. Because that's not what a model of cosmology is.

[smallnamespace]

> to match the observed motions of the celestial bodies

The point is that even with current observational data there's no reasonable distribution of dark matter that correctly explains all evidence that we have.

Your intuition that "if I have an infinite number of degrees of freedom anything at all can be fit" is leading you astray here.

[nyssos]

> Sure we can't see dark matter (it doesn't interact electromagnetically), but we can see its effects

Even this is granting too much: "seeing it" and "seeing its effects" are the same thing. No one has ever "directly seen", in the sense that internet DM skepticism demands, anything other than a photon.

[adrian_b]

"Seeing" is indeed a poorly chosen word.

The problem with dark matter is that there does not exist any second relationship from which to verify its existence, like in the case of normal matter, which takes part in a variety of interactions that lead to measurable effects, which can be compared.

The amount and the location of dark matter is computed from the gravitational forces that explain the observed movements of the bodies, but there are no additional relationships with any other data, which could corroborate the computed distribution of dark matter. That is what some people mean by "seeing".

[nyssos]

All major DM candidates also have multiple interactions: that's the WI in WIMP, for instance. In fact I don't know that anyone is seriously proposing that dark matter is just bare mass with no other properties - aside from the practical problems, that would be a pretty radical departure from the last century of particle physics.

[jampekka]

No interactions have been found, despite a lot of resources put into the search. So currently all dark matter particle theories apart from "non-interacting" have been falsified. And non-interacting theories are probably unfalsifiable.

Radical departure may well be needed, for other reasons too.

[karmakaze]

> The problem with dark matter is that there does not exist any second relationship from which to verify its existence.

This is exactly it! Dark matter is strictly defined by its effects. The only 'theory' part is a belief that it's caused by yet to be found particle that's distributed to fit observations. Take all the gravitational anomalies that we can't explain with ordinary matter, then arbitrarily distribute an imaginary 'particle' that solves them: that's DM.

The problem is that the language used to talk about DM is wrong. It's not that DM doesn't interact with EM, or the presence of DM is causing the galaxies to rotate faster than by observed mass. These are all putting the cart before the horse. What we have is unexplained gravitational effects being attributed to a hypothetical particle. If we discovered a new unexplained gravitational property, we would merely add that to the list of DM's attributes rather than say "oh then it can't be DM".

[nyssos]

> Dark matter is strictly defined by its effects

All physical entities are defined by their effects! Suppose we found axions and they had the right mass to be dark matter. Would that mean we now "really knew" what dark matter was, in your sense? No, it would just push the defining effects further back - because all an axion is is a quantum of the (strong CP-violation term promoted to a field).

Just like the electromagnetic field is the one that acts on charged particles in such and such a way, and a particle is charged if the electromagnetic field acts on it in that way. There's no deeper essence, no intuitive "substance" with some sort of intrinsic nature. All physical properties are relational.