[thriftwy]

> Russians never had anything comparable

Russians had something comparable in 1990.

You could take a bike from St. Petersburg through Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, then enter Belarus, go over Ukraine, back into RSFSR, then bike through Sochi, Abkhazia AR, Georgia and into Armenia. Return home biking through Karabakh AR, Baku, Dagestan ASSR, and beyond.

Now you may feel the pain.

Russia had internal-ID based border crossing arrangement with Ukraine up and into 2014, but Ukraine circa 2000 has started talking about how it will cancel that arrangement and require passports and introduce visas and will banish Black Sea Fleet from Crimea, and did three coups against reasonably pro-Russian governments in Ukraine of various success, and now we have zero trust in such arrangements. See also: COVID. The only lands where you may be confident you are able to roam is one under that Russian tricolor flag.

So Russians will absolutely forfeit any kind of agreements and goodwill for having more land, because land is something definite and agreements can be canceled at any moment by the other party without further notice.

There were hopes that CIS will be EU-like commonwealth with USSR-like integration between parties without USSR-like command structure, but it quickly turned sour. Which showed to us the paramount importance of borders and where they're drawn.

> Never took a free semester in another country under the Erasmus program, never held Eurail pass or backpacked through Europe as if national borders didn't exist

Yeah, that is basic Russian experience of not having access to all that stuff. It does definitely highlight the idea that state borders are important, the access to the stuff beyond these borders is complicated and may be denied, so it totally makes sense to have as much useful stuff as possible within your own borders. States 101.

Russians did not care about borders that much in 1990 when you could cross any of these on your bike without noticing, but they definitely started to care a lot about borders in 1995 when they discovered that customs and border guards has now sprang up and the borders are major PITA. They have also started questioning why exactly these borders were drawn in the way they were.

[mopsi]

> Russians had something comparable in 1990.

Who are you trying to fool? The USSR had internal passport system and residency permits known as propiskas. People went as far as arranging fake marriages to get propiskas into major cities and settle there. Employers could only hire people with a valid propiska. Living without a valid propiska was a criminal offence. People were essentially serfs tied to the address in their propiska.

In 1990, as Soviet authorities were desperately looking for ways to reform the crumbling country, the Committee for Constitutional Supervision of the USSR had this to say about the system:

  The Constitutional Supervision Committee of the USSR, having considered on its own initiative the issue of compliance of the legislation on registration with the provisions of the Constitution of the USSR, laws of the USSR and the international obligations of the USSR on human rights, found that the current provisions on registration significantly limit citizens' freedom of movement, choice of place of residence, work, education and exercise of other rights.

  The introduction of restrictions on the rights of citizens to freedom of movement and choice of place of residence is associated with the establishment of rules that violate other fundamental rights of citizens. These rules include:

  a) rules prohibiting the heads of enterprises, organizations and institutions from hiring persons who are not registered in the given locality;

  b) rules prohibiting the admission to higher and secondary specialized educational institutions and vocational schools in Moscow and a number of other cities of non-resident citizens in a capacity greater than what they can be provided with hostels and living space from close relatives. These rules contradict the principle of equality of all citizens of the USSR in receiving education, enshrined in Articles 34 and 45 of the Constitution of the USSR and Article 4 of the Fundamentals of Legislation of the USSR and Union Republics on public education, as well as the principle of equal access to education recognized in international human rights instruments;

  c) rules prohibiting the registration of spouses and members of their families in the living space of a spouse living in Moscow, Leningrad and Kyiv in a hostel, regardless of its nature, or as a temporary resident, or as a subtenant in the living space of another person. These rules, the application of which leads to long-term separation of families, contradict Article 53 of the Constitution of the USSR, Article 11 of the Fundamentals of Legislation of the USSR and Union Republics on Marriage and Family, as well as the relevant provisions of the International Human Rights Acts.

And so forth. Original source in Russian: https://base.garant.ru/183584/

The system of propiskas was finally abolished in 1997 when the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation also found it in violation of human rights. And this is just about being able to freely move, work and study as a citizen inside your own country.

Visiting other countries, even puppets in the Eastern Bloc such as East Germany, was a total pipe dream that required official recommendation and characterization as a loyal commie from your place of employment and trade union, followed by KGB's border department digging through your personal history to ensure that you will not defect as soon as you can (and for that reason, families were not allowed to travel together). The entire process took months. And even then, KGB assigned their people into tour groups to keep an eye on Soviet citizens. During his time in East Germany, Putin was one of those people keeping a watch over Soviet tourists. For most people, this was irrelevant anyway, because the limited number of foreign travel permits went to those on the higher steps of the communist hierarchy and few people were able to leave the country even once in a lifetime.

As I said, you never had anything close to the cooperation Europe has established through peace and cooperation. You are so far behind that you don't even recognize how outdated everything you say sounds. You are living in the past.

[thriftwy]

I just don't see how that would prevent you from doing that bicycle trip of yours.

Remember that I didn't mention visiting any other countries, just the USSR, which totally did not have these domestic borders that would prevent the bicycle trip you have described. Propiska does not come into equation since you did not mention applying for work and settling permanently.

I wonder if you got the messages that Russians mostly view these borders as a nuisance that they were raped into accepting.

> you never had anything close to the cooperation Europe has established through peace and cooperation

I don't deny it, but then again, so what? I never had anything close to many things. A space trip. A Rolls Royce. A helicopter tour. "Coooperation that Europe has established" as well.

But you know what I do, one Crimea that you can buy a train ticket and visit, with no border controls deciding whether you are entitled to do so this week or no.

[mopsi]

My point was that the freedom of movement is not only for trivialities such as riding a bike, but the same ease extends far beyond that, including being able to permanently move across Europe for work, study or leisure - which I did mention - without any obstacles, to the point where national borders do not have any meaningful impact on everyday lives of Europeans. Just pack your things and go and do whatever you want. The sad story about post-USSR borders keeping Russians apart is as dumb as it gets since Europe has already achieved much more through peaceful means than you ever did through violence.

You are choosing to go through another Afghan war every month, destroy the national economy, flush the last remnants of your reputation down the drain, and bring indescribable suffering to millions of people for something that you could get for free if you had smart people running the country.

There is no other way to describe it than a completely retarded behavior. The worst thing is that you cannot even imagine any alternatives to it. This is truly eye-opening for me. You come across like those dumbasses brainwashed by Nazism who committed suicide during the final days of the WWII because they couldn't imagine a future for Germany without the Third Reich.

[thriftwy]

> national borders do not have any meaningful impact on everyday lives of Europeans

At the same time they do have great impact on the lives of ex-USSR citizens. We deal with it. That's what we have to do and that's what we do.

> for something that you could get for free

I don't remember a single moment after 1991 when this was an option. I do remember that EU and USA had spent good amount of money and effort to undermine any attempts for Russian Federation to form such bonds with any of its neighbours, and to replace any Russian-sympathetic government of these countries. And now they say they want to further fracture Russia and set up more of these borders with more misery.

> The worst thing is that you cannot even imagine any alternatives to it.

I can easily imagine alternatives to it (I've obviously been to EU many times), I just see throughout my life that we are not admitted to any of these alternatives. We're not getting any of that stuff, not in the past and not in the future, so I would rather have Crimea. And Lugansk. And Mariupol. This is the reputation that we need now.

As for dumbass brainwashed yadda yadda, molon labe. Come and get it. The folks on the front line are seriously tired by now, but they have this precious experience and cohesion, so should any Eastern European chihuahuas show up there, you will be wasted good.

[mopsi]

> At the same time they do have great impact on the lives of ex-USSR citizens.

No, that is not true at all. If we count all the people who lived directly in the USSR and in the Eastern Bloc dictatorships under Russian control, then that's about 100 million people who have gained the same rights and opportunities as the French, Italians and other European nations enjoy. Impacted are only those who never chose to participate in European initiatives that have brought people so closely together. It was Russia's choice to stay out of them and thus it's strange to see complaints that you feel left out.

> I do remember that EU and USA had spent good amount of money and effort to undermine any attempts for Russian Federation to form such bonds with any of its neighbours, and to replace any Russian-sympathetic government of these countries.

I trust the recollections of people who were actually at the helm of Russia over yours, for I doubt you were even born then. As the minister of the foreign affairs of the Russian Federation 1990-1996, Andrei Kozyrev was the top man in charge of restoring Russia's relations with the world, and he tells a quite different story. In short, KGB hardliners refused to accept loss of their special privileges and fought back against opening Russia up to the world. They wanted a hermit kingdom that would serve as their personal piggy bank with them at the top. By hook and by crook, they took over the entire Russian government and turned it into a dictatorship led by low-level KGB apparatchik.

According to Kozyrev, Europe and the US can only be blamed - if at all - for not intervening strongly enough to keep Russia on track of becoming a modern country. They could've done more to support people who tried to steer Russia towards freedom, peace and prosperity, but ultimately it is up to Russians to take care of their garden.

Fast-forward 25 years, and we have Putin and his gang in palaces and on superyachts while you have "precious social cohesion" dying under American missiles on the potato fields of Ukraine. How can you not feel robbed and made a fool?

And like stereotypical abusers, to isolate and manipulate you, Putin constantly feeds you lies that everyone else is out to humiliate and mistreat you. You have internalized it to such extent that you not only believe it yourself, but try to convince others that it is true. It is not true and it never was.

The door to Europe was open to you. It was literally official policy in many parts of Europe. You only had to take a step. At the critical point in history, you failed to make the right decision and take advantage of the opportunity.

You can spin coping stories about Crimea all you want if they comfort you and help to forget this gigantic blunder, but with a navy that ran away to avoid being wiped out, an army whose HQs and staging areas get blown up so often that news have stopped reporting them, and an air force that is unable to fly over Crimea without being shot down, the chances of victory over Ukraine look slimmer than ever. You aren't the first Nazis to invade Crimea and hold it for a while, with an illusion that it will last forever.

[thriftwy]

> never chose to participate in European initiatives

That's not true, Russian Federation did "participate in European initiatives"

> refused to accept loss of their special privileges and fought back against opening Russia up to the world

And how would that look like? Russia was widely open up to the world up and until 2014. It's more open to the world today that you care to admit.

It would be interesting to read Kozyrev directly if you've got a link, though.

> done more to support people who tried to steer Russia towards freedom

How would that even look like!?

> The door to Europe was open to you

That's false, it was never open. Just take a look what Turkey is doing now. They've spent decades on reading EU's cucumber party regulations and now they've got semi-dictatorship and no longer admissible because they frankly gave up some time around 2015.

And Turkey is an easy case compared to Russia. It's in NATO, not as big, does not have its own nukes, etc, etc.

That was never an option.

> You only had to take a step.

How would that even look like!??

You're talking all the time about Russia refusing some simple steps and not opening enough, but absolutely sounds like these "it's not you it's me" excuses from the friend zone to any Russian. Russians are not stupid as to not being to tell a relationship from a friend zone.

EU is officially declaring that it now has the optimal size, perhaps even too big, but definitely only accepting small countries such as maybe Montenegro in the future. So that is no go from the day one. The path that you are confidently showing as available just does not exist and it never did. Russians didn't even expect it. But there should be some framework dealing with Russian existence on the edge of Europe, and such framework was notoriously absent. We didn't even have short trips visa waiver in 2010. So when 2014 come, there was no carrot that EU could threaten to take away, and Russians are famously imprevious to sticks.

So no Erasmus, and the only back packing option available is in the military camouflage.

Too late for that stuff, anyway. No go win that war that you can't shut up about being winning.