[thriftwy]

> national borders do not have any meaningful impact on everyday lives of Europeans

At the same time they do have great impact on the lives of ex-USSR citizens. We deal with it. That's what we have to do and that's what we do.

> for something that you could get for free

I don't remember a single moment after 1991 when this was an option. I do remember that EU and USA had spent good amount of money and effort to undermine any attempts for Russian Federation to form such bonds with any of its neighbours, and to replace any Russian-sympathetic government of these countries. And now they say they want to further fracture Russia and set up more of these borders with more misery.

> The worst thing is that you cannot even imagine any alternatives to it.

I can easily imagine alternatives to it (I've obviously been to EU many times), I just see throughout my life that we are not admitted to any of these alternatives. We're not getting any of that stuff, not in the past and not in the future, so I would rather have Crimea. And Lugansk. And Mariupol. This is the reputation that we need now.

As for dumbass brainwashed yadda yadda, molon labe. Come and get it. The folks on the front line are seriously tired by now, but they have this precious experience and cohesion, so should any Eastern European chihuahuas show up there, you will be wasted good.

[mopsi]

> At the same time they do have great impact on the lives of ex-USSR citizens.

No, that is not true at all. If we count all the people who lived directly in the USSR and in the Eastern Bloc dictatorships under Russian control, then that's about 100 million people who have gained the same rights and opportunities as the French, Italians and other European nations enjoy. Impacted are only those who never chose to participate in European initiatives that have brought people so closely together. It was Russia's choice to stay out of them and thus it's strange to see complaints that you feel left out.

> I do remember that EU and USA had spent good amount of money and effort to undermine any attempts for Russian Federation to form such bonds with any of its neighbours, and to replace any Russian-sympathetic government of these countries.

I trust the recollections of people who were actually at the helm of Russia over yours, for I doubt you were even born then. As the minister of the foreign affairs of the Russian Federation 1990-1996, Andrei Kozyrev was the top man in charge of restoring Russia's relations with the world, and he tells a quite different story. In short, KGB hardliners refused to accept loss of their special privileges and fought back against opening Russia up to the world. They wanted a hermit kingdom that would serve as their personal piggy bank with them at the top. By hook and by crook, they took over the entire Russian government and turned it into a dictatorship led by low-level KGB apparatchik.

According to Kozyrev, Europe and the US can only be blamed - if at all - for not intervening strongly enough to keep Russia on track of becoming a modern country. They could've done more to support people who tried to steer Russia towards freedom, peace and prosperity, but ultimately it is up to Russians to take care of their garden.

Fast-forward 25 years, and we have Putin and his gang in palaces and on superyachts while you have "precious social cohesion" dying under American missiles on the potato fields of Ukraine. How can you not feel robbed and made a fool?

And like stereotypical abusers, to isolate and manipulate you, Putin constantly feeds you lies that everyone else is out to humiliate and mistreat you. You have internalized it to such extent that you not only believe it yourself, but try to convince others that it is true. It is not true and it never was.

The door to Europe was open to you. It was literally official policy in many parts of Europe. You only had to take a step. At the critical point in history, you failed to make the right decision and take advantage of the opportunity.

You can spin coping stories about Crimea all you want if they comfort you and help to forget this gigantic blunder, but with a navy that ran away to avoid being wiped out, an army whose HQs and staging areas get blown up so often that news have stopped reporting them, and an air force that is unable to fly over Crimea without being shot down, the chances of victory over Ukraine look slimmer than ever. You aren't the first Nazis to invade Crimea and hold it for a while, with an illusion that it will last forever.

[thriftwy]

> never chose to participate in European initiatives

That's not true, Russian Federation did "participate in European initiatives"

> refused to accept loss of their special privileges and fought back against opening Russia up to the world

And how would that look like? Russia was widely open up to the world up and until 2014. It's more open to the world today that you care to admit.

It would be interesting to read Kozyrev directly if you've got a link, though.

> done more to support people who tried to steer Russia towards freedom

How would that even look like!?

> The door to Europe was open to you

That's false, it was never open. Just take a look what Turkey is doing now. They've spent decades on reading EU's cucumber party regulations and now they've got semi-dictatorship and no longer admissible because they frankly gave up some time around 2015.

And Turkey is an easy case compared to Russia. It's in NATO, not as big, does not have its own nukes, etc, etc.

That was never an option.

> You only had to take a step.

How would that even look like!??

You're talking all the time about Russia refusing some simple steps and not opening enough, but absolutely sounds like these "it's not you it's me" excuses from the friend zone to any Russian. Russians are not stupid as to not being to tell a relationship from a friend zone.

EU is officially declaring that it now has the optimal size, perhaps even too big, but definitely only accepting small countries such as maybe Montenegro in the future. So that is no go from the day one. The path that you are confidently showing as available just does not exist and it never did. Russians didn't even expect it. But there should be some framework dealing with Russian existence on the edge of Europe, and such framework was notoriously absent. We didn't even have short trips visa waiver in 2010. So when 2014 come, there was no carrot that EU could threaten to take away, and Russians are famously imprevious to sticks.

So no Erasmus, and the only back packing option available is in the military camouflage.

Too late for that stuff, anyway. No go win that war that you can't shut up about being winning.

[mopsi]

> That's not true, Russian Federation did "participate in European initiatives".

Nowhere near the level of those did who eventually joined the EU (or even EFTA). Even preparing for accession was a major effort that required incredible amount of work to harmonize legislation and actual practices with European standards. We had very little money at the time and severe shortage of people who understood these things. Everything from stock market rules to patient data protection at medical facilities needed a total overhaul. When comparing this with Russia at the same time, it is very clear that while the idea of European integration was floated from time to time, it was never a serious goal with a full national effort behind it. This is what I meant when I said you never made the step.

In the last 30 years, Russia could've easily become a full member of the EU as did almost the entire Eastern Europe. Or if that was too much, then at least join the Schengen Area and European Free Trade Association and peacefully sell oil like Norwegians for good money and let pensioners spend that warming their bones on Mediterranean beaches instead of suffering through cold and dark winters while worrying if their grandchildren return from the war alive. Yesterday I saw statistics that adjusted wealth for the cost of living. In the span of a single lifetime, Norwegians have risen from poor farmers and fishers to the richest people on the planet. This could've been you. The suffering in the 1990s would've had a meaning then as a stepping stone towards much better future, as it's viewed in Central and Eastern Europe.

> It would be interesting to read Kozyrev directly if you've got a link, though.

He wrote a book on that: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0822945924

> Russia was widely open up to the world up and until 2014. It's more open to the world today that you care to admit.

According to V-Dem indicies, which attempt to quantify the rule of law, civil liberties, fairness and freedom of elections, wide representation of interests (instead of narrow groups), and equal access to resources across various groups within a society, Russia was already at the bottom of global ranking in 2013. The way Medvedev was used to keep the seat warm for Putin's another term and protesters were treated in 2011-2013 leaves no doubt how and by whom Russia was run. Certainly not by the people for the people under rules that are equal for all.

See the table on page 58 and 1973-2023 time series on page 60: https://www.v-dem.net/documents/43/v-dem_dr2024_lowres.pdf

> That's false, it was never open. Just take a look what Turkey is doing now. They've spent decades on reading EU's cucumber party regulations and now they've got semi-dictatorship and no longer admissible because they frankly gave up some time around 2015.

When it comes to Turkey, negotiations were always bound to become long and difficult due to unresolved issues around the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the Kurdish-Turkish conflict, radical muslims in rural Turkey, and a long list of other difficult subjects. There is a fair bit more to chew on than only cucumbers.

Turkey's negotiations for joining the EU began in 2005. V-Dem shows Turkey gradually slipping into authoritarianism after 2008. Negotiations slowed down, stalled in 2016 after the coup attempt in Turkey, and were officially suspended in 2019. I think it is fair when the EU says that political instability and broken economy with 75% inflation rate makes Turkey a poor candidate at the moment. For Eastern Europe too, the main obstacles were economic and political stability criterias.

Last year, main Turkish opposition parties who represent 48% of the electorate reiterated intent to continue working towards European integration. Turkey and Europe have little to lose and a lot to win from seeing Turkey recover and become a stable and prosperous country. The same applies to the relationship with Russia, but with every passing day, you are walking away from Europe, into the loving embrace of the Chinese. When the US and Europe - each a far larger economy than the Russian - are worried about becoming too dependant on China, where does it leave you with barely a tenth of theirs?

[thriftwy]

> rule of law, civil liberties, fairness and freedom of elections, wide representation of interests (instead of narrow groups), and equal access to resources across various groups within a society, Russia was already at the bottom of global ranking in 2013

I just don't see what essentially any Russian citizen can do about this. If you do not have free elections and no representation of interests, then by definition you cannot also fix that stuff in any fashion. "We think we can treat you poorly because your government also does" is an especially poor sell to Russians.

> negotiations were always bound to become long and difficult due to unresolved issues around the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the Kurdish-Turkish conflict, radical muslims in rural Turkey, and a long list of other difficult subjects.

The point is, all of these issues also exist in Russia: Unresolved issues around Abkhazia and South Ossetia, as well as North Caucasus insurrections and its radical muslims. So if that didn't work for Turkey in 30 years, it will also not work for Russia. Case closed.

Getting into EU is comparatively easy for a small country, much harder for a larger one and for Russia (or Turkey) it is both impossible and infeasible. Real integration could only come in some other framework, which has never materialized, and as I can see nobody in EU even understands that it needed to be there. If you are an economic and defense bloc accepting new countries in, you should be very careful about countries you're not going to accept, as they rightfully see you as a threat.