[thriftwy]

> The number of people raped by Soviet forces is estimated between 1 and 2 million, among them many well-known people, such as the wife of Helmut Kohl, raped when she was 12.

No Russian would accuse their grand dad that has taken Berlin of anything, before walking in his shoes first. Walking to the Berlin obviously.

Around 2 millions of Russian civilians starved in Leningrad during the Nazi siege.

I'm honestly not sure which kind of a different response would one expect after murdering more than 20 million Soviet citizens in the four years before that. You do not want to ever bring this topic into conversation because you're going to look worse than the side you are accusing. "We said we are sorry" is not good enough, just like the post-Soviet borders. I believe Germans should start going around whacking annoying Eastern Europeans over the head when they try to dig out this hideous mass grave again. Extremely annoying behavior.

Still, our ancestors had to kill all of armed to the teeth German males first, and that was no small feat, that we are still proud of; and obviously they were 100% righteous in doing so. Then all the Eastern Europeans who we "set free" did their little ethnic cleansing against Germans. I've heard Czech has expelled circa 300,000 Germans, killing several tens of thousands in the process. Ditto Poland.

[mopsi]

> I'm honestly not sure which kind of a different response would one expect after murdering more than 20 million Soviet citizens in the four years before that.

Ah yes, FOUR years, 1941-1945. Because the year 1939, when you signed a secret pact with Hitler dividing Europe, jointly invaded Poland and even held a joint military parade celebrating victory over Poland, didn't exist. Nor did 1940, when you invaded the Baltics and Romania, and supplied oil and other key materials in defiance of economic blockade to the Nazi war machine as German bombers were flying sorties over London, and your own were bombing Helsinki, with "bread baskets for starving Finns" as the propaganda put it (Finns invented the Molotov cocktail as a drink to go with that generous gesture). None of this happened. The war started in June 1941, right.

But no. The war didn't start for Europe in 1941 nor did it for Russians. Germans and Russians were the two main instigators of the Second World War and in cooperation invaded one country in Europe after another in the first two years of the war until there was no-one left but the two of them and the stage was set for the endgame.

Germans have recognized their responsibility and devoted to building a better Europe. Russia, let me check the news feed... another 5 civilians killed, 53 injured in today's drone and missile strike in the Ukrainian city of Dnipro. And god knows how many died on the frontlines defending their country, and in torture chambers on occupied territories.

There is no need to speak about digging out old graves when you are producing new ones every day.

[thriftwy]

> when you signed a secret pact with Hitler dividing Europe, jointly invaded Poland and even held a joint military parade celebrating victory over Poland

I didn't sign anything. And before that, Germany and Poland has jointly invaded Czechoslovakia and divided it between themselves. It was wild; still I don't understand why I would feel responsible for any of these events in history.

> Germans and Russians were the two main instigators of the Second World War

That is, like, just your opinion, man. I have a different one. We can agree to disagree here. Even if was just Germany and the Soviet Union fighting each other, the point about not wishing to dig up that mass grave persists. Most of the mutilated corpses there are, tragically, Russian.

> Germans have recognized their responsibility and devoted to building a better Europe

Great for them, but as a Russian I saw nothing useful coming from it my way. So why would I care.

> Russia, let me check the news feed... another 5 civilians killed, 53 injured on today's drone and missile strike in the Ukrainian city of Dnipro

So go sign some peace treaty with Putin, he has some fresh terms for it. People in Dnepropetrovsk and Kiev stop dying, but so are people in Donetsk and Belgorod and Sevastopol. After several deadly Ukraine's attacks against civilian targets in Russia, I grew tolerance to Ukrainian losses. I genuinely don't care mourning somebody other's dead when I have enough of my own.

Just don't expect us to cede any lands we paid in blood. We used to be that stupid, but I hope not anymore.

[mopsi]

> It was wild; still I don't understand why I would feel responsible for any of these events in history.

> Great for them, but as a Russian I saw nothing useful coming from it my way. So why would I care.

> After several deadly Ukraine's attacks against civilian targets in Russia, I grew tolerance to Ukrainian losses

Excellent example of Russian mentality on full display. Don't understand, don't care, don't feel responsible.

This is how you differ from Germans. They have faced their past and developed a deeply internalized sense of duty not to repeat the past mistakes. They are a key contributor to the European Union, a major platform for peaceful cooperation in Europe and beyond. Despite long and violent history, they have mended relations with France and Poland and many others who have seen Germans as enemies for centuries. Since the 1960s, Germans have pursued the policy of Wandel durch Handel, hoping to bring positive change through mutually beneficial trade, including with Russia. They have provided aid and investments in billions and billions, and if anything has not reached you, then that's because Putin chose to spend the money earned through trade on missiles killing people in Ukraine instead of building better schools in Russia.

Your attitude towards the victims of the latest war is particularly vile. The only reason why anyone is dying, including Russian civilians caught in the crossfire, is because Russia started the war for which people like you keep inventing excuses out of imperialistic delusions and entitlement.

This is especially revealing:

> Just don't expect us to cede any lands we paid in blood. We used to be that stupid, but I hope not anymore.

You "pay in blood" only because you invaded another country, murdered and continue to murder people defending their homes and loved ones as you try to steal their property. There is nothing smart about thievery and murder. Germans are smart. They found a way to have a influence on the world without all that. You will continue to pay in blood until you leave Ukraine alone because that is fair and just.

[thriftwy]

> They are a key contributor to the European Union, a major platform for peaceful cooperation

Since it excludes Russia from the day one I also care very little, and for me that's a liability not a virtue.

> The only reason why anyone is dying, including Russian civilians caught in the crossfire, is because Russia started the war

Again, that's only your opinion with which I disagree. There's Crimea and LPR/DPR and Ukraine has started a civil war against LPR/DPR. They should've thought twice about that.

> you invaded another country, murdered and continue to murder people defending their homes

They should go to Putin and sign some ceasefire or peace treaty with him if they don't like it. Why come to me. I am not Putin and I didn't even vote for him.

[racional]

They should go to Putin and sign some ceasefire or peace treaty with him if they don't like it. Why come to me. I am not Putin and I didn't even vote for him.

And yet - when someone corners you on the internet you run to stand behind him, like a big papa.

So in that sense, you very much are "voting" for him.

[thriftwy]

The emphasis here is not on Putin but on the negotiations. If you refuse to negotiate, you will get killed. Even if Putin is replaced tomorrow with Mutin or Agutin, it's not like you can skip the negotiations stage.

It was stupid for Ukraine to skip negotiations in 2014, it was stupid for them doing three coup attempts in 15 years, but it was also stupid for Putin to do what he did in 2022. That's past now, though, that is immutable, and the future can only be fixed by negotiations.

[mopsi]

> Since it excludes Russia from the day one I also care very little, and for me that's a liability not a virtue.

There is nothing in the key treaties of the EU excluding Russian membership, provided that it meets the criteria, of which the rule of law and the respect for human rights are the largest concerns. Back when Gorbachev was seeking "Common European Home" with the EEC, European countries were quite open to the idea. Certainly no less than they were open to a good working relationship with Germany only five years after their citizens had been saved from concentration camps. In Central and Eastern Europe, everyone who set European integration as their goal reached it in 10-15 years, and it has been an incredible success for everyone involved.

But I believe we once already discussed that feeling of empowerment from being able to kill people across the world with impunity is more attractive to you than fishing quotas and other mundane things that the EU deals with most of the time to improve the lives of its citizens day by day.

> Again, that's only your opinion with which I disagree. There's Crimea and LPR/DPR and Ukraine has started a civil war against LPR/DPR.

There was no civil war in Ukraine. LPR/DPR are fiction created by Russia to mask their invasion. And this is not my opinion, but facts established by the European Court of Human Rights. A few years ago they had a case brought against Russia by countries whose citizens perished in the shot-down MH17 airliner. Russian representatives tried to spin the old lies about "separatists" in Ukraine being at fault (and thus absolving Russia of all responsibility), but the court found no facts to support that there had been any separatism worth mentioning in Ukraine. Those people were, from the start, like Girkin from Russian secret services, recruits from local criminal gangs working for them, or from the armed forces of Russia without proper insignia, all acting under Russian military command.

Pay attention to the reverse side of the Russian campaign medal awarded to the participants of the invasion of Crimea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_%22For_the_Return_of_Cri... The start of the campaign is incribed as 20 February 2014. That was months before LNR/DNR "declared independence", and even predates Yanukovych running away from the country (the event gopniks call "CIA coup" that started it all).

The truth is that Russia invaded Crimea as Ukraine was in internal turmoil, and then made special operatives cosplay separatists in Donbas and used that as an excuse to invade Eastern Ukraine.

> They should go to Putin and sign some ceasefire or peace treaty with him if they don't like it.

All offers Putin has made so far can be summed up as "let me keep what I've stolen, and add a bit more". Anything less than a retreat from Ukraine is not a serious proposal. You are paying one Afghan war worth of killed every month for the stubborness to admit in the third year of the war that the three-day land grab has failed. The price is only going to rise as European arms factories ramp up production, and more of the fighting is carried over into Russia as restrictions on weapons get looser. The batch of fighter jets that the Netherlands signed over to Ukraine yesterday came without restrictions about their use over the skies of Russia.

> Why come to me. I am not Putin and I didn't even vote for him.

People like you are the reason why Putin has any impact in the world. Putin is not sitting behind a bench in a factory and milling artillery shells that reduce Ukrainian cities to rubble as if a nuclear weapon had gone off. He is not programming Ukrainian power plants into missile guidance systems to make Ukrainian cities unlivable. He is not the one sitting in a jet and dropping bombs on Ukraine. He is not the one torturing minors in cells fitted for children. He is not the one raping, murdering and stealing across Ukraine. Without millions of people acting as his willing executioners, he would be a rambling maniac without any influence on the world.

By choosing to adopt his bunker mentality and spread his lies, you have a part in this too.

Circling back to the beginning, you may disagree with everything, but the way Russians treat Ukrainians in words and actions alike shapes how you will be treated in return. By the way things are going, you will have many more opportunities to complain about humiliations.

[thriftwy]

> LPR/DPR are fiction created by Russia to mask their invasion

Why does LPR/DPR militia fight the Ukrainian army then, from 2014 onwards? Because they totally do. They are among the most motivated troops.

> Anything less than a retreat from Ukraine is not a serious proposal

Then more Ukrainians will die "defending their homes", as well as Russians of course. And have a good day.

> Without millions of people acting as his willing executioners

They just really don't like the state of Ukraine (and post-Soviet borders), but at the same time want Russia to win the war. It's simple.