[nerdawson]

> You people are literally making up things about a country that you don't know about.

I’m not from the US.

I spent 2 years living in Spain.

Are you claiming that the average Spanish citizen believes that a typical person should be responsible for freeloaders rather than the government?

[zrn900]

> I’m not from the US.

Even if you are not, your philosophy seems to be from there. Works out to the same.

> I spent 2 years living in Spain

Yeah that should have given you the past, present and future knowledge of all things about Spain.

> Are you claiming that the average Spanish citizen believes that a typical person should be responsible for freeloaders rather than the government?

Excellent example of how you have been talking about a country without knowing about it. Spaniards dont call them freeloaders. Even using that word means that you are American in mentality even if not geographically. The attitude is that if those people need it and some well-off person ends up with okupas in his second house, no one bats an eye and many even would say 'the bastards deserve it'. And anyone who has an extra house is 'well-off'.

[nerdawson]

I'm merely pointing out that you're assuming ignorance simply because I have a different opinion to you. Having lived there myself, I'd like to think I have something of an understanding of the culture.

Freeloaders, admittedly a charged word, is how I'd view someone who helps themselves to something I've worked to pay for. How is that any different to a mugger stealing your phone or your wallet? After all, they're likely in a worse financial position than you. If you can afford to replace it, let them have at it.

> And anyone who has an extra house is 'well-off'.

I don't want to fall into a strawman here but my interpretation is that you're fine with criminals stealing from someone, as long as they're in a better financial position than you are. It's convenient to imagine that the only people falling victim to this are those who can afford to have their property stolen from them.

[taopai]

- Have you worked there with the average salary?

- Have you met the reality of working class people there?

- Have you stayed on a touristic city or on industrial areas?

- The real criminals are people from Spain, speculative funds and tourists from all over the world buying property here and not using it. They steal to everybody.

Then we can't hire people for our business because people can't find rent. We aren't paying low, the problem is the crazy rent market.

Banks own 80% of not used living places in Spain. Tell me who is the burglar. Real okupas only squat in this places, I know a lot, and surprise! Banks will get you out faster than anyone else but keep their property unused and rotting. Because they don't care about houses, they only care about land.

Spanish constitution states that housing is a human right. That's the difference. If someone enters to your home, people will bust them, if someone enters to your speculative bargain or summer whim, good luck, people want to live.

[nerdawson]

> - The real criminals are people from Spain, speculative funds and tourists from all over the world buying property here and not using it. They steal to everybody.

So create a tax for leaving property empty and use that to fund programs to address homelessness.

There are plenty of solutions which aren’t permitting theft.

Banning short term rentals for instance would be pretty effective. There could be other side effects but it’d certainly lead to many second homes being sold.

> We aren't paying low, the problem is the crazy rent market.

I sympathise with this. My assumption would be that imposing punitive taxes on unoccupied properties is the most realistic solution.

If that forces people to sell, supply goes up. If people continue as they were, there’s more money available to do something with.

[zrn900]

> There are plenty of solutions which aren’t permitting theft.

There are 'plenty of solutions' which arent permitting theft, and NONE of them work ANYWHERE. The only solution is, well, 'theft', apparently.

> My assumption would be that imposing punitive taxes on unoccupied properties is the most realistic solution.

Another case of just shooting from the hip without knowing anything. There is already a tax on unoccupied properties. It didn't fix anything.

> If that forces people to sell, supply goes up. If people continue as they were, there’s more money available to do something with.

Another example of economic 'theorization' based on the reality of... nothing. The tax is there, it doesn't work. The economic theory has little connection with the actual reality in Spain too, just like elsewhere in the world. Its just a modern religion to justify capitalist profiteering based on 'how things should be'. Except things just don't work the way they 'should'...

[zrn900]

> I'm merely pointing out that you're assuming ignorance simply because I have a different opinion to you

Yes. You have a different opinion than me and the majority of Spaniards. Despite that you think that you can make statements on behalf of us. There comes the ignorance.

> Freeloaders, admittedly a charged word, is how I'd view someone

Spaniards don't.

> How is that any different to a mugger stealing your phone or your wallet?

Not different, and per Spanish law, theft up to a few hundred euros is not a crime either.

> It's convenient to imagine that the only people falling victim to this are those who can afford to have their property stolen from them.

Its not 'convenient'. Its how this works. Okupa movement stakes out houses, its owners and goes after the well-off. In a lot of cases they get help from within the community, or the occupier is someone from the neighborhood already. That's what 'professional' okupas help with - by helping poor locals occupy empty houses.

Surely occasionally an unhinged persona occupies someone's only house. But that's rare. The majority of occupation happens locally through the help of activist okupas.

...

Long story short, you have no idea about the culture and society you speak of, despite having lived here for 2 years, and you are still handing out statements and interpretations based on, well, American cultural mentality actually. Spanish culture is different. Its as simple as that. The difference between these two cultures can be seen in how things are in the specific countries.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/homes-for-sale-affordable-housi...

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/13/americas-dirty-little-secret...

https://www.quora.com/Were-there-any-American-citizens-livin...

Not that the other countries that imitate the US and the capitalist mentality are any different - even Scandinavian countries started to experience major inequality after adopting 'investment friendly' practices in the last few years. Americans themselves are escaping to other countries, including Spain, to escape the hellhole that it has become and gentrifying the people there in the process. North Europeans are doing it too - which is actually becoming a problem.

So that mentality doesn't work. It f*cks up societies. Stop preaching it.

[nerdawson]

I live in a country of people with diverse views. I feel it's ignorant to assume that I'm speaking on behalf of the majority of my fellow citizens.

Quoted from the article:

> Public opinion on squatting is polarised, with some viewing it as a necessary response to systemic failures that leave citizens without affordable housing options. Others see it as an infringement on property rights and a challenge to the rule of law.

If you're actually fine with theft, again going back to the mugging example, we simply couldn't be further apart in our views. I would be curious to know if you're a homeowner but honestly, I don't think either of us are going to gain anything from delving any deeper with this discussion.

[zrn900]

> I live in a country of people with diverse views. I feel it's ignorant to assume that I'm speaking on behalf of the majority of my fellow citizens.

You are speaking on behalf of the American mentality that you subscribe to. Thats who 'you' are.

> If you're actually fine with theft...we simply couldn't be further apart in our views

Its not you and I who are far apart in our 'views'. Its the American culture that you subscribe to and, well, the rest of the world's culture who are apart. Even more so with the Spanish culture. Getting flabbergasted at the difference and then 'rephrasing and reiterating' it as a bad thing will not change anything. Spaniards will not consider okupas thieves and the Spanish constitution's right to housing clause wont change.

So yes, this discussion is unproductive as you literally live in a world of capitalist philosophy that is quite distanced from the world that still keeps its humanity. Bye.