[veddox]

Because this opinion has surfaced a number of times here: Yes, Tolkien did care deeply about the realism of his world. And because he spent his whole life studying pre-modern societies, the societies he creates in Middle Earth do function very realistically. I think there are two reason why many readers miss this:

(1) Much of Tolkien's world-building is implicit rather than explicit. He doesn't talk about Aragorn's tax policy because he doesn't need to; Aragorn is recognisably a feudal king and there is a standard way taxes are done a feudal system (i.e. the vassals take care of gathering them). Tolkien has a deep understanding of how such societies function, but much of this comes out indirectly in the story, through the way the characters behave and what they can and cannot do.

(2) Pre-modern societies are so deeply different from modern ones (economically, culturally, and socially) that I think many readers stumble across things they find unexpected and dismiss it as "unrealistic fantasy", without understanding that in such a context, this is exactly how one would expect the world to work. For example, the deep devotion and self-sacrificial service Sam shows to Frodo is often discussed in terms of friendship (and it is a great friendship), but one cannot fully understand it unless one also understands it as a (very positive) master-servant relationship.

If you want a better understanding of the deeper realism of LotR, I cannot recommend Bret Devereaux' blog highly enough. He is an ancient military historian and has written extensive (but entertaining!) analyses of both LotR and GoT. See here for two samples: https://acoup.blog/2020/05/22/collections-the-battle-of-helm..., https://acoup.blog/2019/05/28/new-acquisitions-not-how-it-wa...

[jameshart]

Aragorn is not a ‘feudal king’, he is a king of legend.

Tolkien was trying to write a mythology - it’s meant to be a mythological past for our actual world. It isn’t set in the medieval era of our world though, it’s meant to be timelessly ancient. Myths set in an ancient past often are told with protagonists who seem to come from a more recent time though. Consider Saint George and the Dragon - a 12th century myth about a knight in shining armor who ‘long ago’ fought a dragon. A knight - a saintly one in particular - was a contemporary character but the story was set in the ancient past of legend. Similarly the ancient Greeks told legends about the Trojan wars where characters who resembled their contemporary warriors fought alongside gods.

The anachronism is part of the form. The shire isn’t ’medieval’ or ‘feudal’, it’s timelessly rural or * bucolic*. Hobbits are in behavior far more like 19th century farmers than medieval peasantry and that’s appropriate because they are meant to represent a nostalgic persona to an early 20th century audience, even though they are participating in a story that is meant to take place in a nebulous prehistory, before the world changed.

The journey in the Lord of the Rings is almost as much a journey back through deeper and deeper legend as it is through space - the hobbits travel from a Napoleonic era Shire, through Renaissance Rivendell, back to a medieval Rohan then classical Gondor, and then into the strictly mythological Mordor.

[veddox]

I partly agree.

> Aragorn is not a ‘feudal king’, he is a king of legend.

I was not using "feudal" to denote a time period in our world's history, but rather a system of governance based on liege-vassal relationships. I agree with you that Gondor feels more classical than medieval, but as a king, Aragorn is quite clearly the liege-lord of vassals (Imrahil, Faramir, the Thain) who hold their lands by his bequest. So while Aragorn is definitely legendary in the sense that he is an idealised fictional figure, in-universe he is very much a feudal king.

> The journey in the Lord of the Rings is almost as much a journey back through deeper and deeper legend as it is through space - the hobbits travel from a Napoleonic era Shire, through Renaissance Rivendell, back to a medieval Rohan then classical Gondor, and then into the strictly mythological Mordor.

Yes, absolutely. Tolkien creates the countries of Middle Earth out of many different historical inspirations, with a heavy dose of mythology mixed in. I find it good fun to see where he got his ideas from - for example the parallels between Beowulf and Rohan (compare the great halls of Heorot and Meduseld).

But of course Tolkien never simply mixed and matched. His creativity drew on things he knew, but he didn't just recombine them, he amalgamated them into something really new. So I agree, seeing Middle Earth as "medieval Europe with a different geography" is just plain wrong, on many different levels. But still we can analyse the ingredients that Tolkien used to create his world, and use that to gain a richer understanding of it.

[jameshart]

The distinction I’m making is that while you can interpret the throne of Gondor as a liege lord with vassals, that is as much because when we are telling a story about a legendary king we understand that idea of ‘king’ in familiar terms, and as western readers our image of a warrior king is rooted in medieval castles and courts.

But Aragorn is as much of a feudal king as Gilgamesh, Minos, or Arthur. The various princes charming, wicked queens, and abandoned princesses of fairy stories are all vaguely ‘feudal’ in feel too but that doesn’t mean the stories are embedded firmly in a world of strict Christendom-style vassalage and primogeniture succession.

My point is really that asking what Aragorn’s tax policy was is like asking what the economic consequences were of King Midas’s reign. By the end of RotK, he’s a ‘king’ in the archetypal, storybook sense. You know: the King. Happily ever after.

[veddox]

Hm, I think I understand your point, but I still disagree. For three reasons:

First, Tolkien isn't writing another Grimms' fairy tale. His world has sufficient depth to it that we can make valid comparisons to real-world societies. Aragorn and Theoden are not generic fairy tale kings of some unspecified country. We know a lot about the geography, culture, history, and political organisation of their realms. We can see how they raise their armies, how they interact with their vassals, how they see themselves. They are not just "vaguely feudal in feel", they are actual (albeit fictional) examples of feudal rulers in action.

Second, these are not just incidental details that make the story more fun to read, they are highly relevant for the development of the plot. Questions of succession, legitimacy, and loyalty drive the attitudes and actions of Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Denethor, Theoden, Eowyn, Eomer, and Imrahil. The values to which these characters hold themselves are, in many ways, typically feudal.

Third, we know that Tolkien spent his life studying these societies, and he himself often talks about where he got his inspiration from. Unfortunately I haven't read his letters myself yet, but I know from other sources that he is often quite explicit about where he drew his ideas from (see e.g. here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influences_on_J._R._R._Tolkien).

[teapot7]

> is like asking what the economic consequences were of King Midas’s reign.

Massive devaluation of gold, rampant inflation :)

[richardfontana]

> The journey in the Lord of the Rings is almost as much a journey back through deeper and deeper legend as it is through space - the hobbits travel from a Napoleonic era Shire, through Renaissance Rivendell, back to a medieval Rohan then classical Gondor, and then into the strictly mythological Mordor.

Very insightful comment. I have read (and thought deeply about) the books countless times over many years but never realized this before.

[jameshart]

I think it’s connected to how Tolkien always connects his ‘fantastical’ elements with the ‘ancient’.

The balrog is a primal evil the dwarves released by digging too deep; Tom Bombadil has been alive forever; Fangorn and Mirkwood forest are remnants of the ancient forest that once covered the world; Gollum has been granted long life by the ring making him a remnant of the past that has survived; The elves’ long lives make them a living connection to the past.

His mythology is all about people touching and being touched by something primally ancient, so to confront that world requires that kind journey through time.

[wjnc]

How do you know this (and can explain it so well)? Next level insights these. Thank you.

[jameshart]

That’s kind of you to say.

I wouldn’t claim any special insight. Like a lot of people I read LotR at a very formative age and as a result I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about it.

[bazoom42]

If we draw parallels to history, Gondor is more like Byzantium, and Mordor and the orcs is of course the Turks. Return of the King is a fantasy where Constantinople never falls and instead the Roman empire is reunited and ressurrected.

The Classical/ancient world in Tolkien is Nuemenor which is somewhat a parallel to Troy.

[justanotherjoe]

I think the argument about the taxes is that, being a wholesome person is largely orthogonal to being a good king, like it is being good with a sword doesn't make you a good monarch. For example, letting Grima leave edoras because 'enough blood has been spilled' is really cool, but dubious and questionable.

Though I don't know much about ME and maybe in that world, the challenges present in the real world don't exist there.

[veddox]

Here's the tax policy quote in context: https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2014/04/grrm-asks-what-was-ar...

> being a wholesome person is largely orthogonal to being a good king

I disagree with Martin here. Of course, not every good person also makes a good king, and not every good (i.e. politically effective) king was a good (i.e. morally upright) person. But the thing to realise is that the political power of feudal kings was much more limited than we often assume, and was based to a large part on the continued loyalty and goodwill of their vassals. In other words, a king's power rests on the relationships he has; it is both personal and relational.

This means, of course, that a king who is perceived by his vassals as being a bad person is unlikely to keep their support and allegiance for long. He might be able to cow individual vassals by force, but the more his relationships degrade, the more precarious his position will be. (For example, King John's scandalous behaviour and personal conflicts with his barons were one of the main causes for the Baron's Revolt and the Magna Carta.)

With that in mind, it is little surprise that medieval handbooks for rulers heavily emphasise a good character, loyal relationships, and morally upstanding behaviour as key to being a successful aristocrat. Tolkien understands this, and so his depiction of kings and aristocrats focusses strongly on the relational ties between them: the fealty and oaths they have sworn, the ancient friendships and marriages that connect them, the personal admiration and sympathy they have for each other. Put differently, medieval aristocrats would readily recognise Aragorn, Theoden, Eomer and Imrahil as model princes.

(For a more detailed discussion of medieval aristocratic values, see here: https://acoup.blog/2020/03/27/a-trip-through-dhuoda-of-uzes-.... For a discussion of personal kingship - based on Crusader Kings III - see here: https://acoup.blog/2022/09/16/collections-teaching-paradox-c...)

[pdonis]

> Here's the tax policy quote in context

The context gives further support to the article's statement that George Martin didn't think things through very well before posing his questions. Or even read the books very carefully, for that matter. For example, Martin's questions about the orcs are answered, by implication, in Book VI, Chapter 5:

"[T]he King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, and sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Nurnen to be their own."

So as long as whatever orcs were left didn't take up arms against other peoples, they would be left alone in their own lands to make their own way. No genocide.

(In fact, it's not even clear that Martin understands what actually happened to the orcs and other creatures that Sauron had bred. He seems to think they were "in the mountains"--but that's what happened at the end of the Second Age, not the Third--the orcs that survived the War of the Last Alliance hid in various places in the mountains, and remained threats to travelers in the mountains during the Third Age. But it's made clear that that was because at the end of the Second Age, the Ring was not destroyed and Sauron's power was not forever taken away. At the end of the Third Age, it was. Big difference.)

So I also disagree with Martin's take on Tolkien.

[vkou]

Were the slaves just the orcs, or the various people (including orcs, but not all of the orcs) enslaved by Sauron (largely in the East, beyond Mordor)?

[pdonis]

The slaves were probably a mixture of orcs and other races. There might not have been many orcs left at all; in Book VI, Chapter 4, it is said that many of the orcs after Sauron's fall slew themselves or fled away to hide, with the implication that they would not have survived for very long without Sauron's direction.

[justanotherjoe]

It's not an attack of LotR realism I think. But more a meta analysis. The story does end with aragorn's coronation. Millitary general getting popular after winning a war is nothing if not realistic.

Heck, i think it's consistent at least in LotR, that Aragorn must be a good king. A world where it's literally the music of a good god. You literally can't miss by just doing the wholesome thing, as no good deed will go unrewarded.

[jhbadger]

> Millitary general getting popular after winning a war is nothing if not realistic

Exactly. It even works in democracies; Dwight Eisenhower became US president from 1953 to 1961 largely because of his success as Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force in WWII. And Grant and Washington too, of course.

[adolph]

I took a peek since 53 was 8 years after WWII. What a weird time it must have been. Truman telling Eisenhower that Truman would run as VP is Eisenhower ran as president.

  12 April     1945 Truman assumes presidency after Roosevelt's death
  2  September 1945 WWII ends
  2  November  1948 Truman elected president
  2  November  1952 Eisenhower elected president

[In 1947] As a result of Truman's low standing in the polls, several Democratic party bosses began working to "dump" Truman and nominate a more popular candidate. . . . On July 10, Eisenhower officially refused to be a candidate.

For both Republicans and Democrats, there were movements of support for General Dwight D. Eisenhower . . . . Unlike the latter movement within the Democratic Party, however, the Republican draft movement came largely from the grassroots of the party. By January 23, 1948, the grassroots movement had successfully entered Eisenhower's name into every state . . . . Stating that soldiers should keep out of politics, Eisenhower declined to run . . . . [0]

In July 1947, President Harry S. Truman considered him an ideal candidate for the Democratic Party, and wanted to "groom the general to follow him". That month, Truman even secretly offered to be the vice-presidential candidate if the general would run for president as a Democrat.

Hoping that Eisenhower would run for the Democratic Party, Truman wrote to him in December 1951, saying: "I wish you would let me know what you intend to do." Eisenhower responded: "I do not feel that I have any duty to seek a political nomination."

Although Eisenhower believed he would win the presidency more easily and with a larger congressional majority as a Democrat, he felt the Truman administration had become corrupt and that the next president would have to reform the government without having to defend past policies. The internationalist wing of the Republican Party saw Eisenhower as an alternative to the more isolationist candidate—Senator Robert A. Taft, the son of former president and chief justice William Howard Taft. Before the primaries, Taft was widely referred to as "Mr. Republican" [1]

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_United_States_presidentia...

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_Eisenhower_movement

[wbl]

Hurin would be the most famous counterexample.

[donkeybeer]

I think what is written in books vs what is practiced is a bit dubious. It is still true today as it would have been back then, what books profess as good and how people behave in real life is quite different.

[zeekaran]

How does any of GRRM's ASOIAF make realistic sense then?

[Karrot_Kream]

It often doesn't and a lot of historians are very aware of this. The wars of ASOIAF are brutal affairs which make no sense. The idea of total war didn't become a thing until much later on. This is just one example. Bret Devereaux talks about this on his blog [1] and other historians have stuff to say also.

P.S. The comments on this thread are a tire fire. I feel like I'm reading random Twitter drive-by comments oh boy.

[1]: https://acoup.blog/2019/05/28/new-acquisitions-not-how-it-wa...

[gamblor956]

The ACOUP blog post only deals with the Middle Ages, and only on the European Middle Ages. (And a brief reference to the pre-Middle Age eras notes that the Romans were very much proponents of total war.)

The idea of total war didn't become a thing until much later on.

Troy, Assyria, Babylon, Macedonia, Carthage, and Mesopotamia would like to have a word with you on that point. Or they would, if they hadn't been completely wiped out. The Mongol Hordes were known for total warfare. It was their whole spiel: join us, or be completely destroyed.

The very concept of not targeting civilian populations during warfare is so recent that there are people still alive today who were around when the idea was first proposed.

[Attrecomet]

ASOIAF however portrays a very clearly medieval society -- vassalage (badly used in the story, but obviously meant to be quite feudal), the general tech level with castles (not palaces!) and the language used are all meant to evoke a late medieval feeling. What Rome did with Carthage is pretty immaterial in this context, because no medieval European ruler would have either the inclination or the ability to enact such destruction.

I'd also point out that destroying an entire city is not total war. Brutality in war and targeting civilians isn't enough to be total war in itself, especially if it's limited to exceptional circumstances -- in general, Rome was extremely happy to conquer new populations to increase their ability to extract wealth.

[Karrot_Kream]

Sigh okay you got me, I was referring to the European Middle Ages, the implicit background for this thread, for LoTR, and for ASOIAF. I thought the context would be obvious but you win this pedantry.

[lupusreal]

> "Troy, Assyria, Babylon, Macedonia, Carthage, and Mesopotamia would like to have a word with you on that point. Or they would, if they hadn't been completely wiped out."

Rasczak, that you?

[Svip]

> For example, letting Grima leave edoras because 'enough blood has been spilled' is really cool, but dubious and questionable.

My read has always been that Théoden was still unsure about what to do with Grima after what has been revealed. He is clearly angry at him, but it is also difficult for him to let him go, after he had has been his closest council for so long. When they meet Saruman and Grima at Isengard, Théoden even tries to plead with Grima again. And it doesn't make sense that Théoden is trying to lure Grima, because if he is trying to be cunning, he would well know that Grima would never bother, instead, it reads as Théoden still holding out hope.

So yes, it is questionable to send Grima away. And Tolkien isn't exactly subtle about it.

[veddox]

I would rather take it at face value, as a perhaps surprising but nevertheless fitting display of magnanimity and mercy.

Theoden has been restored to his right mind and character. The whole thrust of the his character plot (in the books) is that he ends his reign as noble as any of his forbears; freed from the influence of the lies of Saruman, he becomes an exemplary king. And one kingly virtue that Tolkien presents again and again is that of magnanimity to defeated foes: Bilbo doesn't kill Gollum (which Gandalf explicitly praises), the Rohirrim don't kill the Dunlendings, Gandalf doesn't kill Saruman.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment."

[Attrecomet]

This magnanimity is also something prized in Earth-medieval kingship, too. Many a revolt against a king ended with the king pardoning the vassals that rose up -- only a king very secure in his throne could depose or even execute rebellious vassals. Of course, it's important that it be a common member of the nobility for this to work consistently. Against commoners, brutality was far less politically costly. And heretics (read: Kathars), who risk the Wrath of God coming over the whole community, are even less worthy of protection.

[TacticalCoder]

> When they meet Saruman and Grima at Isengard, Théoden even tries to plead with Grima again.

I've only read the book twice and it was a long time ago I last read it but... The whole Saruman/Grima/Theoden thing is way different in the book. In the book by the time Saruman arrives at Saruman's tower, Saruman had escaped (I think by tricking one of the ent, smooth talking it).

Saruman then goes to attack the shire. It's Grima who kills Saruman, but in the Shire.

I don't think Theoden tries to plead with Grima? That's a Peter Jackson / LoTR-the-movie invention no!?

I don't remember enough of the book but the whole "Theoden pleads with Grima / Saruman slaps Grima / Grima stabs Saruman in front of Theoden" is definitely not happening like that in the book.

It's maybe even the biggest difference between the book and the movie (it kinda changes the whole timeline).

[Svip]

I am mistaken. Théoden does not plead with Grima in the book. But Théoden is less eager to throw out Grima, when the truth has been revealed at Edoras compared to the movie. I must have confused the scene in the films for happening in the book, even though I had just read the book, though notably, Théoden continues to refer to him as "Grima" while everyone else calls him "Wormtongue". Regardless, I was talking about the events at Orthanc in the third book, in the second volume, chapter The Voice of Saruman, not the events much later in the Shire.

Edit: It's not the scene in the movie I confused it with, it's that Théoden does remark that he hopes Grima can come back after the incident, but he does not in fact plead directly with Grima.

[smogcutter]

> being a wholesome person is largely orthogonal to being a good king

Tolkien would disagree. So strongly in fact that he wrote an entire fantasy series about it!

[s1artibartfast]

I don't think that is true for Tolkien, fantasy, or life.

If someone is a king, being a good person is synonymous with being a good king. Same with being a good loyal knight, ect.

There is no need to separate the individual and social role.

You have a moral archetype of for each social role, and judge the morality of the people in those roles against it.

[mikrl]

The leader who took Russia from being a grand-principality centred on Moscow to a continent spanning empire was Ivan the Terrible.

You don’t get an epithet like that by being a nice fella.

[PeterisP]

But Ivan the Terrible simply wasn't a good king - taking Russia from being a grand-principality centred on Moscow to a continent spanning empire is a major change in the world that we have to note in history, but it doesn't make someone a good king, neither his contemporary nobles nor his contemporary peasants nor the conquered peoples really benefited from that.

There's a difference between good and great, having a major impact doesn't imply that the impact is good. Alexander the Great is another example of someone who had an outstanding impact, but was not a good king.

[s1artibartfast]

I dont think that refutes the point I was making.

Was Ivan a moral ruler? Can his morality as a ruler be separated from Ivan's morality a person?

The point Im trying to make is that that making dual and parallel judgments is a choice, and I think many people dont hold this distinction.

I think the more common view is that how a king rules is a huge factor in their moral standing as a human.

[parthianshotgun]

So do you think then that power doesn't corrupt?

[s1artibartfast]

Seems irrelevant. If someone is corrupted and does amoral things, the result is still an amoral person.

Sauron is not moral but corrupted. They were corrupted, and thus became amoral.

[mistrial9]

.. carved out of a land where tribal conflict was constant and common, massacre was well known, and illiterate poachers held huge territory.. hard to imagine from an armchair in a suburb in modern times

[mikrl]

Just saying, it’s not Ivan the Great and Peter the Terrible. Both lived up to our modern expectations of autocrats, but one was more involved with what we now consider conducive to ‘greatness’ ie grand reformist ideals, science and modernization.

[naniwaduni]

Good old Johnny, terrific dude.

[aidenn0]

Gondor has arguably more parallels to the Byzantine Empire than to a Western feudal society, so would have been a tax policy, though I suspect that more of the governments wealth would have come through collecting rent on agricultural land owned by the nobility.

If we continue the parallels to the Byzantine Empire more than the text can take us, much more important to the merchants than taxes would likely have been the government's involvement in the skilled trades (i.e. guilds) and setting of interest rates.

[atombender]

> he spent his whole life studying pre-modern societies

Tolkien was not a historian, but a philologist — professionally, he was a scholar of comparative and historical linguistics — and I think it's a stretch to say that he "studied pre-modern societies" outside the context of their languages.

The Lord of the Rings is essentially a re-imagining of pre-historic Britain, and the setting isn't so much informed by history as by mythology. LotR isn't "medieval", which is probably one of the greatest misunderstandings about the book, and one that lead to an unfortunate excess of faux-medieval sword-and-sorcery fantasy literature.

[Attrecomet]

Except it very obviously IS a medieval world. Not our Middle Ages, but a world that works very closely like how we understand Middle Ages to work. It's feudal, he understands Anglo-Saxon warfare to an amount surprising in an author of trivial literature, and he very obviously DID make a huge effort to make many details correct either in the "how we understand the past" way or to frame them in a way that is understandable for the people who read Beowulf and similar myths.

[IIsi50MHz]

Vague memories here, but I think Tolkien is said to have built his stories primarily as background for his constructed languages, because he believed that a language cannot be created in isolation without seeming hopelessly artificial and shallow.

[poulpy123]

The fact that Tolkien did care about the realism of his world doesn't mean that it is perfectly realist or perfectly coherent. I don't expect a writer to have a so perfect world building that you can analyse all parts and find it coherent and with real world counterparts

[resource_waste]

>Tolkien did care deeply about the realism of his world.

Nietzsche says that we cannot take this too seriously. An Artist's ideas will never conform to reality and the gaps torture a good artist.