[wkat4242]

Kinda nice actually. This is like the one thing Musk has done at Twitter that I agree with. I think sexuality is a normal part of life, we shouldn't be so fussy about it (within consent obviously). It's not even always for money, many people just enjoy it sharing their content.

However it should be behind a filter of course. Just like reddit does. So those who are interested can view it and the rest can avoid it.

[GaggiX]

NSFW has always been allowed on Twitter or you would have to erase half of the artist community.

[yjftsjthsd-h]

That didn't stop Tumblr.

[GaggiX]

Yeah, and it kind of died.

[arandomusername]

Pornography is damaging to society/to those that view it.

https://news.byu.edu/intellect/pornography-use-at-any-level-... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9922938/

[pavel_lishin]

Any studies from non-religious sources?

[arandomusername]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6571756/ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... https://extension.usu.edu/relationships/research/effects-of-... https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/is-pornography-h...

Also those only focus on the user. The pornography business itself is a lot more horrible as it's closely linked with sex trafficking.

[yjftsjthsd-h]

Is nih.gov a religious source, or was the comment edited after yours?

[shagie]

NIH hosts papers. It is not an authority by itself.

The NIH paper is from the following authors:

    Haseeb Mehmood Qadri, corresponding author 1 Abdul Waheed,1 Ali Munawar,2 Hasan Saeed,3 Saad Abdullah,4 Tayyba Munawar,1 Shaheer Luqman,1 Junaid Saffi,1 Awais Ahmad,5 and Muhammad Saad Baba r6

    1 Surgery, Lahore General Hospital, Lahore, PAK
    2 Surgery, Shaikh Zayed Hospital, Lahore, PAK
    3 Pathology, Allama Iqbal Medical College, Lahore, PAK
    4 General Surgery, Allama Iqbal Medical College, Lahore, PAK
    5 Surgery, Jinnah Hospital, Lahore, PAK
    6 General Surgery, Lahore General Hospital, Lahore, PAK

Pakistan may have a strongly religious influence on its faculty... and I'm going to ask what expertise surgeons have on the subject mater compared to the layman.

[wkat4242]

Considering most of the world views it and society is fine, I think I can posit the contrary.

And think of all those hippies from the 70s that would have sex parties in the park. They're all grown up now. Don't see them running around raping and murdering. Might run into them at the swinger club though :)

[arandomusername]

Well, birth rates are below replacement rates in most western countries where pornography is consumed more than elsewhere. Also, more people are single, more men are not sexually active, high divorce rates, etc.

Ofcourse, correlation does not imply causation. But personally I do think pornography contributes to some of the above in some ways.

[shagie]

https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/newsroom/news-release...

Why are we limiting this to western countries?

This is clearly a problem with (checks list) Bhutan, Maldives, Puerto Rico, Nepal, South Korea, Saint Lucia, Taiwan, Carbo Verde, Djibouti, and Bosnia. I'm missing the list of "most western countries" there in the most critical ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility#Caus...

Is the reduction in fertility possibly more influenced by things like... https://www.statista.com/statistics/259518/birth-rate-among-... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/08/02/why-is-th...

Or https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2015/05/07/family-...

> The more education a mother has, the fewer children she will have on average in her lifetime. While fertility drops somewhat with each additional level of education, the biggest fertility gap occurs between women who lack a high school diploma and those who have completed high school.

> Moms ages 40 to 44 who lack a high school diploma have about 2.9 children in their lifetimes, on average, while those with a high school diploma or some college have about 2.4 kids. Mothers at the end of their childbearing years who have a bachelor’s degree or higher have about 2.2 children on average.

Though I would certainly not say that one should be encouraging teenage pregnancy nor hindering the education of women in an attempt to boost the fertility rate.

Blaming the declining fertility rate in western nations on pornography seems to miss the more obvious causes.

[arandomusername]

There are other factors contributing to it, absolutely. I'm not disputing that.

What do you think are the main factors for highest % of men not being sexually active (compared to historically), highest % of people living alone (in US).

[shagie]

Economic stability (and the lack thereof) makes it difficult to start / grow a family. This also extends to difficulties in family planning. The result of this is that it can be economically safer / more stable to live alone in an apartment than it would be to spend money on courtship, expectations of a wedding, and house.

Lack of social support for families with children. Once you have a child, the costs and demands on the family are significant. This extends to things like reducing the support for WIC, difficulties in finding childcare (and its expense). Again, the outlook for having a child is a lot of money.

The difficulty of maintaining a family and a career (side bit - telecommuting is a step in the right direction for white collar jobs). Having a stay at home mother / wife is difficult in today's world. Both the expectations of "that's not what I want to do" and the income that isn't there. Supporting a couple on a single blue collar isn't viable, and supporting a family is way out of the question.

And so, yea, guys aren't sexually active. The social, medical, and economic risks are too high for all people involved.

Under this model, porn isn't the cause, but rather the symptom of the social and economic difficulties faced by individuals. Attempting to "treat" the symptom (of people watching porn) isn't going to make men more sexually active any more than a box of tissues next to the bed treats the flu instead.

Me? why am I a single male living alone? Because when I was in the SF Bay in the '90s and early '00s, the ratio of single women to single in the 20 to 29 age bracket was about 80 to 100 (map from 2015 http://visualizing.nyc/bay-area-zip-codes-singles-map/ - its better now than it was in the '90s ). The only place in the US that was worse were Air Force bases in Alaska. Put that down for two decades and then adding the "well, I got no money" after the dot com crash and '08 ... and I'm certainly not looking to start a family with some (un)lucky lady.

This story writ large of economic insecurity combined with misaligned demographics ( https://jonathansoma.com/singles/#2/3/2/0 ) in places where young men go to work. And while now I'm in https://jonathansoma.com/singles/#7/8/2/0 - I'm a cranky gray beard that is certainly not looking to start a family.

In an alternate universe with today's technology I would have stayed in my college town and worked remotely in tech and hooked up with that cute young woman (back then) from one of my classes rather than going our separate ways when I got a job ... though if I was 21 today that would be back to the "can't afford it" category.

The thing to do is to make the ability for someone to plan a family for the next 20 years something that can be done. Until one can look to the future and be able to feel some assurance that they'll be in a better situation than they are today, the risks and uncertainty of "settling down" are enough to stifle many of dreams of a family.

[wkat4242]

> Well, birth rates are below replacement rates in most western countries where pornography is consumed more than elsewhere.

Are those bad things? I think it is great for the population to shrink a bit for environmental reasons. It's not like humanity will go extinct tomorrow. We have way too many people on this planet competing for scarce resources already. And that's with more and more poor countries rising in welfare and wanting their microwave ovens and fridges too.

> Also, more people are single, more men are not sexually active, high divorce rates, etc.

It's just that we have more freedom. Couples that married young and were forced to stay together to appease the community were super common in the 50s. We don't have to anymore. And I don't think divorces are a problem as such. I don't think marriage is important. I've had a more than a decade-long relationship and we never thought of getting married.

And kids are just difficult to have now. These days it's necessary for both partners to work and that doesn't fit well with having kids. It's a big hassle. I never wanted them in the first place and I'm glad I didn't. That doesn't mean that people don't have sex.

I see a lot more sexual freedom too. Swinging, sex-positive parties, polyamory etc. Many couples I know share their intimacy, as do my partner and I. I don't think this is due to porn but rather due to a more relaxed attitude to sexuality, which I consider a really good thing. These things can strengthen bonds as well. I know several married couples that would have not been able to stay together if they weren't so liberal to let off steam once in a while.

[arandomusername]

Yes, those are bad, horrible things. It's why a lot of governments are trying to incentivize them to go up.

> It's just that we have more freedom

Partially, yes, explains no kids/somewhat divorce rates, but does not explain men not being sexually active, as every man (that's not asexual) wants to bone. And irregardless of marriage, more people are single/not in a relationship.

> . I don't think this is due to porn but rather due to a more relaxed attitude to sexuality, which I consider a really good thing. These things can strengthen bonds as well

I disagree. Studies show that those that have more sexual partners are more likely to divorce [1]. Personally, and that's just personally, I could never have the love of my life fuck another man.

[1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0192513X231155673

[wkat4242]

> Yes, those are bad, horrible things. It's why a lot of governments are trying to incentivize them to go up.

It might be a bit bad short term like with the boomer wave getting old and nobody being there to take care of them. But in the long term we'll get over that bump and it's way better for the planet. It won't support infinite growth.

> Partially, yes, explains no kids/somewhat divorce rates, but does not explain men not being sexually active, as every man (that's not asexual) wants to bone.

It's still their choice though. If they don't have a partner they can always just pay for it once in a while. I also do sometimes between relationships, no big deal.

> I disagree. Studies show that those that have more sexual partners are more likely to divorce [1]. Personally, and that's just personally, I could never have the love of my life fuck another man.

I understand, it's very personal. I like it myself. But I find it can have a stabilising effect because you can never cover all your partner's needs equally well. I don't think it's bad if relationships don't last anyway. I'm still best friends with most of my exes. It just moved into a different phase. I didn't get married anyway and I've never wanted kids.

I don't think you can blame porn for all that though. I think it's more of a symptom of the higher sexual freedom we have now, than a cause.

[seadan83]

Could people be spending more time single due to spending more time inside on the internet rather than a stronger causative effect of porn consumption.

Out of cohorts that consume no porn, to what degree are those variables you cited different? If those cohorts are introduced to porn, do those numbers change? In those cohorts, is there full honesty about usage? It's very difficult science to fo.

There are studies that show porn use particularly in women will lead to higher divorce rates [1] though, it is noted the relationship is curvilinear, as porn use goes to a high level, the effect of separation decreases. Are people unhappy in marriage seaking out porn, or is porn causing the unhappy marriage? Are people who are likely to be divorced later more likely to seek out porn? Correlation and causation are incredibly hard to tease out. Is it the porn's fault? Who knows, in some specefic cases - probably, but generally speaking it is not supported by data. If supported by data, to get that causation claim, then a dose and effect relationship needs to be identified as well as a clearly articulated mechanism of action.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28936726/

[arandomusername]

True, it's very difficult to attribute the reasons for big social movements, so I am doing some speculating. I do agree that internet contributes as well. My belief that it is a mix of reasons, and pornography is one of them, as it gives complacency. Just rub one out instead of making an effort on meeting potential partners & improving yourself to make yourself suitable.

Interesting study. I agree that it's very difficult to find the causation.

[seadan83]

Indeed. That speculation is where we get into trouble as human beings (we like to see rabbits in clouds, we're evolved to see patterns where often there are none). And of course - in sociology, and all the variability of human behavior and the overall human experience - sociology is perhaps the toughest field of any to create any form of scientific knowledge at all. For example, the "great replication crisis". I appreciate your being open to dialog and having had a reasonably pleasant exchange. Thank you

[wkat4242]

> Just rub one out instead of making an effort on meeting potential partners & improving yourself to make yourself suitable.

It's not nearly as satisfying as the real thing though. For me it can never be a replacement. Just an addition.

[thriftwy]

>. the research found that pornography use by men or women at any level negatively impacted romantic relationships

What if you don't have any, and nowhere to get? What if you're 14 and realistically any serious romantic relations are many years in the future for you?

[arandomusername]

Do you think a 14 year old should be regularly viewing porn? Is that really the argument you are trying to make?

[thriftwy]

A 14 years old me was regularly viewing porn, so by Kantian philosophy it is not wrong for me to suggest making it a general rule.

[wkat4242]

I know I was when I was 14. Weren't we all?

[antegamisou]

Man this being downvoted seconds after being posted speaks volumes about how ubiquitous porn sickness on a site supposed to satisfy iNtElLeCtUaL cUrIoSiTy

So man cooomers ITT it's just sad.

[shagie]

Citing BYU as a source is the issue as any other conclusion of a paper would run counter to the code of ethics for faculty there.

https://policy.byu.edu/view/rank-and-status-policy

> Expectations of Professorial and Professional Faculty

> 2.1 Faculty Standards

> BYU is a private university with unique goals and aspirations rooted in the mission of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a faculty member’s responsibility to contribute affirmatively to the full realization of human potential and to a university environment enlightened by living prophets and sustained by those moral virtues which characterize the life and teachings of the Son of God (see Mission Statement). Faculty members should also provide students an education that is spiritually strengthening, intellectually enlarging, and character building and that leads to lifelong learning and service (see Aims of a BYU Education).

---

Do you have any secular citations?

[tzs]

Are you suggesting that when BYU faculty or grad students do a study and come to a conclusion that counters Church teachings rather than simply not publishing the study they instead would falsify the study to make it come to the opposite conclusion and publish that?

[shagie]

I am saying that if they were to do research on the subject, they would either start from the hypothesis and work to prove that (and social sciences have difficulties with replication crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis that it becomes possible to prove any result), or that a study that found contrary would get a "yea, we're not publishing that", or that people interested in researching the expanded domain would get suggested that this would not be something to aide them on a tenure track or advancement and they should look to other research areas.

> It is a condition of employment that faculty members act in accordance with university policies, including the Academic Freedom Policy, the Church Educational System Honor Code, and the Church Educational System Dress and Grooming Principles and Expectations. Faculty who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and who accept an offer of university employment on or after January 27, 2022, also accept as a condition of employment that they will hold and be worthy to hold a current temple recommend.

> As integral members of the university community, faculty are expected to be role models of a life that combines spiritual values and personal integrity with intellectual rigor and academic excellence, and to conduct their work in a professional manner consistent with the principles and values espoused by the university and the Church of Jesus Christ. They are expected to live lives reflecting a love of God, a commitment to keeping His commandments, and loyalty to the Church of Jesus Christ. They should engage in continuing faculty development and maintain high levels of performance throughout their careers.

Does this suggest that one could research such a domain that would run counter to teachings of the church and remain employed?

[arandomusername]

It was one of the two sources I linked. I also linked more in another reply.

Feel free to disregard byu, because plenty of other studies agree

[shagie]

The link to the NIH paper in the commented I replied to is from the surgical wings of various hospitals in Lahore.

In other comments USU extension is Utah State University... which while not BYU has similar influences.

The impartiality of these sources is to be brought into question.

I would also note there is a significant cultural difference between Utah, Poland (the sources for two other links), Lahore, and the US at large that may more than slightly influence the agendas of the authors.

[arandomusername]

Poland, outside the country side, is quite progressive.

Instead of disregarding the sources because they originate from culturally different, let's attack any points made.

[seadan83]

Other studies disagree as well too.

These excerpts from [1] sum it up kinda well (I recommend reading the full article, it makes a few additional points not listed here):

"“My biggest concern regarding the scientific study of porn is that a noticeable subset of researchers come at these issues with a focus on harm in their minds. They try to establish ways to confirm that porn is causing whatever harm they already believe exists,” he says. “The field needs more people who are willing to look at the data and leave aside their politics and their issues.”" [1]

"Voon says. “What we do know with porn is that there are some patterns that are consistent with an addiction – but some that are not. We need much larger epidemiological studies to know for sure.”" [1]

"A meta-analysis – a study of studies – published by Malamuth in 2009 found that hundreds of papers from the 1980s to 2008 were fairly consistent in linking high rates of porn viewing with violent ideas and behaviour. But here’s the caveat: not all men respond to porn in the same way." [1]

"For most men, consuming porn will not cause them to view women differently. But in those who already are predisposed to hold sexist views or to behave in an aggressive fashion, porn can exacerbate pre-existing and dangerous propensities. In this way, it’s just like any other drug."

"Alcohol, for example, is in many ways comparable to porn because it is ubiquitous, socially acceptable and legal."

“For some people, alcohol can truly ruin their lives,” explains Malamuth. “But for others it can be mildly positive, such as providing stress relief or enhancing their sex lives. It depends on the cultural context – and the individual.”

"The field is riddled with misconceptions and biases that are not supported by the data, she says."

"Despite concerns that porn can decrease libido and lead to impotence due to ‘tolerance’ and ‘desensitisation’, research published by Prause in the journal Sexual Medicine in 2015 shows these worries to be unfounded."

"“The most well-replicated and concerning harm is reinforcing rape myths in men who already believe them,” says Prause. Such that if you take a woman on a date, she owes you sex. Or that women secretly want to be coerced into sex."

[1] https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/is-pornography-h...

[arandomusername]

/u/freedomben @freedomben for some reason I can't reply to your comment so replying here,

I did not edit any of my comments.

[freedomben]

was the NIH link there at the beginning or did you edit it in?

Either way is fine, but it would be good for you to disclose that as it has an impact on the downvotes and the other comments are received.

[arandomusername]

None of my comments are edited