[throwaway22032]

I don't think that your explanation leads to the conclusion that these things are not socially transmitted.

Mountain biking as a sport would not be possible for the average person without the community. Sure, someone could be, and had to be, "the first" MTBer, make knobbly tires, build a suspension, go without a trail, etc, but that sort of spontaneous "new sport discovery" process is not going to happen at anything like the rate that people are attracted (via social transmission!) to the existing sport with everything in place.

The question seems to be whether being transgender, or being a mountain biker, is something that can exist purely in the mind, in the absence of the ability to realise it.

In some ways it feels like an unanswerable question because normal gender roles are socially transmitted anyway, so we can't even say whether "being a man" exists in isolation.

[TaylorAlexander]

> The question seems to be whether being transgender, or being a mountain biker, is something that can exist purely in the mind, in the absence of the ability to realise it.

Agreed. And we don't generally refer to mountain bikers like that, but we do for trans people. Equalizing the analogy, it would be "person who would enjoy mountain biking" and "person who would enjoy gender transition". I think this framing makes it easier to see as something that could already exist within a person.

Of course the truth is that whether someone would enjoy mountain biking or whether someone would enjoy transition is related to both social factors and pre-existing personality traits.

The real problem comes when we stigmatize people for having these traits or for deciding to do something about it.

[throwaway22032]

I agree with what you are saying up until the last part because "traits" as a general term are not all positive.

As an example, we stigmatize, and should stigmatize, the behaviours of those who are attracted to minors, and that stigma likely does reduce the social transmission of those behaviours.

The question I think comes down to essentially whether one considers the results of acting on gender dysphoria to be "bad".

If it is bad, then the question then becomes, is it a net benefit to stigmatize transitioning - i.e. do the benefits in reducing overall gender dysphoria outweigh the costs to those who would have it regardless of social factors.

If it's not bad, none of that matters, crack on.

[TaylorAlexander]

Well I’m firmly in the “it’s not bad” camp.

[throwaway22032]

Fair enough.

For me it seems to have some pretty significant downsides. Loss of fertility, permanent hormone replacement, surgeries, trouble dating and being accepted in society, never really "passing" unless you do it very early on, etc.

If it's the only choice for a given individual e.g. they'd feel terminally depressed otherwise, then sure, they should be able to do it. I wouldn't really call it good though, it seems like the best worst option.

Of course, if the stigma has no effect on rates of gender dysphoria then none of this makes sense because there is then no benefit in dissuading people from transitioning.

[TaylorAlexander]

Well, I’m trans. Loss of fertility is mixed. Probably I could stop hormones for six months and still conceive. I might do that in the next few years but of course that would be disruptive.

I’m not going to have any surgeries, but those that do seem to be happy for it so that doesn’t seem to be a down side.

Trouble dating doesn’t fit for me. My dating life is massively better, in large part because I finally feel good in my skin and now how to look sexy.

I don’t make any attempt to “pass”. I’m a non-binary transfemme. My gender expression is all over the place. I’m just happier with hormones and the clothes I like. It’s more about not trying to be a “man” and just doing whatever, including hormones in my case. All the problems with passing come from places where society doesn’t accept trans people, and expects everyone to fit in to rigid gender roles. That’s not a problem with trans people that’s a problem with society, and in many places people have realized that it doesn’t matter if someone is wearing a dress and has facial hair, or whatever doesn’t fit normal gender roles. On analysis it obviously doesn’t matter, but some places need to catch up. In the San Francisco Bay Area, no one gives a shit. From the earliest most awkward moments of my transition, no one ever seemed to care and no one ever said anything.

And my life is so much better. I feel better. I feel sexier and more confident, and my dating life has exploded. Sex is so much better without heteronormative expectations. I got so tired of that sex life, and now I feel so may possibilities.

So yeah, when you understand the facts, stigma is anti-social behavior and acceptance is the best response.

[throwaway22032]

I wish you all of the best in your life, but what you are describing sounds like a colossal pain in the arse to me.

I think that we are speaking at cross ends, as you are comparing life before and after transition, whereas I am comparing the lack of perceived need to transition vs the perceived need to transition.

That is to say, it seems clearly better to not be dysphoric in the first place, if that can be achieved. Especially considering what you describe!

[pwdisswordfishc]

You're still a man though. Messing with your hormones doesn't alter that reality.

[jojobas]

This would be a meaningful comparison if mountain biking was such a surefire way to fuck up your life.

[amanaplanacanal]

Wait, are you saying that transitioning is a surefire way to fuck up your life? Because for people with gender dysphoria it’s the exact opposite.

[jojobas]

There's no way to tell how many of the kids didn't know they had gender dysphoria until they heard it's cool.

The growth figures for adolescents reporting GD can't be explained without a social contagion kind of thing.

[TaylorAlexander]

Counter point is that I’m an adult who started transition at 36, and I really wish I’d known this was an option when I was younger. I knew trans people existed, but only as the butt of jokes. I wish I had understood this to be a real choice when I was younger.

[TaylorAlexander]

Exactly.

[ImaCake]

You can absolutely ruin your health mountain biking. Breaking your neck is a thing that is more probable if you do mountain biking.

[kelseyfrog]

Who here has independently arrived at the conclusion that they must don the toga virilis[1] between the ages of 14 and 16? It's a difficult position to be in.

1. https://www.historyskills.com/classroom/ancient-history/roma...