Ask HN: Devs/data scis who pivoted to a new career in 30s/40s, what do you do?

[throw9078686]

I see posts every once in a while about engineers or data scientists choosing to leave the space to a new one.... I also often hear how hard it is to do so.

For those who made a successful transition, what did you move to? What advice do you have in hindsight?

[lr4444lr]

As someone who has obligations to provide for a family in the USA, I can't imagine leaving dev work without an absolute clear passion and burning drive to do something specific. Giving up a six figure income I use to feed and house my family that demands I use my brain while sitting in a comfortable indoor environment, doing nothing more physically taxing than use a keyboard? Sure, I have fantasies from time to time about doing something with more dynamism in meatspace, but let's get real: it's a fantasy. I can't imagine recommending anyone with a stable career in data work upset that apple cart unless they already have a clear aim in mind, which they think about day and night - not with the unsureness of this post.

[ryandrake]

I think some people must have some romantic view of manual labor, like it is more noble or pure than moving protobufs from one API layer to the other. Combine that with the very real problem of burnout and stress from an emotionally abusive work environment, and you have people thinking they want to quit and do farming or something. A lot of my peers in the office quite obviously (it's hard to hide) grew up quite well off and have no idea what it's like to work a mind-numbingly dull service job or how much daily manual labor wrecks your body.

I've had the pleasure (/s) of working retail, being a janitor at a McDonalds, working in a plastics factory that wrecked my sense of smell, and hauling shingles up onto a roof in 100F+ summer temperatures. I will take my sit-down, climate controlled, fingers typing job over any of them, any day, no matter how much those meetings and status updates annoy me.

And, none of the above even touched on salary or standard of living...

[sanderjd]

As a bit of a counterpoint, I have a number of people with more "blue collar" jobs in my family, and while they also relate all the downsides of manual labor that you listed, they also see what I do as a clear "no thank you!".

They would, of course, love to be paid as well as I am, and many would love the schedule flexibility (though some of them also get to make their own schedules much like I do), but they feel very strongly that being stuck inside, immobile, spending all their days reading, writing, and talking, mostly on a computer screen, would be totally miserable. So the grass isn't always greener!

I'm the opposite, I certainly fantasize about doing different things that are mostly intellectual, but I know I'm well suited to sitting around reading, thinking, writing, and chatting from time to time.

I didn't really understand this until some of those family members started finishing high school, and I started trying to suggest careers that seemed good to me, and more than one person finally told me, "I don't want to do any of those things because I'll be stuck in front of a computer all day every day and I would hate that". And I think they were right! "Know thyself" is important.

(Note: I'm talking about careers in trades and professions that are not office work. But not entry level jobs at retail businesses like most of your examples. I think everyone does indeed hate working in retail. But not everyone actually does prefer being on a computer in an office to nailing shingles onto a hot roof!)

[ipaddr]

I miss retail, selling electronics and answering technical questions at radio shack.

I loved that everything I sold went into my pocket. Certain products had spiffs (10 dollars for activating a phone/plan) while everything had a commission (%4 for name brand / 6%/ 10% (for batteries). If I didn't sell enough to make minimum wage I would get minimum wage otherwise whatever I made.

I loved the busy time around christmas. I loved when people came up and I rang them up. I loved playing with the products and learning about the stock.

I worked at a booth that gave away food and sold cheese/meat baskets. I loved giving away food, selling and collecting the money.

I wouldn't go back but I miss that selling feeling.

[sanderjd]

Sure I've known people who have enjoyed jobs in retail. But I've never known anyone who is happy with a career in retail.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

And some people have tried it but simply hate desk jobs and being cooped up indoors all day. I married one.

[Protostome]

I worked in carpeting, which involved glueing and unglueing carpets from floors. Although I had this job only for a year to save money for university, it was a miserable year. I developed a severe allergy to dust, the fumes from the glue messed up my sense of smell, I totally agree with you.

[RGamma]

And also many tools currently in use in the trades are stuck in the last century UX-wise. There's a lot of open innovation in reducing the need for manual force or awkward body positions...

And there's probably some solutions that simply need more adoption like electric stair climbers.

[nippoo]

I'm glad you love your career! I found myself getting increasingly unfit, sad, daylight-deprived and in need of doing something - anything! - else that involved me moving my body. (Bandaids like a standing desk or regular breaks or gym work or a SAD lamp couldn't really detract from the fact I was spending 8 hours a day (the brightest daylight hours too!), in the prime of my life, cooped up at a desk. After a career in live sound, I now design and install high-end A/V hardware and I love it.

[yjftsjthsd-h]

I didn't read anyone saying they loved their career, actually, just that it wasn't bad and the money was really hard to give up.

[itake]

my understanding of most blue collar jobs is the first 5-15 years are great, but as your body starts to break down, you physically can't do it any more.

[pragmatic]

Define “great”.

You’re way underpaid as you’re apprenticing.

Money in trades comes from owning the business not running the trencher, pulling wires etc.

[jf22]

But then you're sitting behind the desk again...

[dakiol]

My first 3-4 years were meh in terms of income, but great in terms of fun (could hack long hours, and I got excited for every little thing). My next 5 years were great in terms of income, and meh in terms of fun (I just wanted to get paid and leave at 5pm). Nowadays, the money is still good so it’s hard to give up, I don’t like software engineering (doing software with a team, with deadlines, with oncall, with managers, etc) anymore. I still love doing side projects.

[shrimp_emoji]

What this person fails to mention is the reason they like brightness so much is because they're a plant.

[nextworddev]

Think you are overestimating stability in data work, especially going forward

[lr4444lr]

I'm no fool. I stash a lot away. If I'm lucky, I'll retire early. If not, I'll have more than enough cushion to pivot without a major disruption in lifestyle. I certainly saw enough instability in every other profession - even civil service - since COVID to know that there is no guarantee in this world.

[Kon-Peki]

> Giving up a six figure income I use to feed and house my family

I'm getting ready to do a pivot and have set a hard deadline: if my income is going to take a very large hit, it needs to be reflected when I fill out the FAFSA for my oldest child. I'm pretty sure that I have 2 years to pivot because I am filling out the FAFSA in 4. If I can't make it happen by then, I'll need to stick it out for a while.

Other than that kind of thing, I think you dramatically overestimate how much you need your 6-figure job.

I'm still trying to figure out what my pivot will be. All I know is that if I have to work with people that don't care, it has to be a job in which not caring is totally fine for the work they do.

[hpenvy]

If you have savings, it's easier to imagine. Also, it's probably not career-ending to take a few year break but I don't know much about this anecdotally.

[kcartlidge]

> it's probably not career-ending to take a few year break but I don't know much about this anecdotally

This is true.

A fair while back I left database and dev work for a few years. Tried my hand at kitchen design and sales, loading trucks, ISP tech support, chicken farming, builder's merchant sales counter, call centre night manager, farm labourer, collections agent, and more.

Loved it all, but my motivation was to experiment to see if the tech world was just my default or something I truly enjoyed. Turned out it was the latter so I returned to it.

Initially I was down about 20% on salary on my return to the industry, but a couple of years sorted that out and early employers seemed to appreciate the more rounded real-world experience.

Cathartic. Though I wouldn't do it again now I have a wife, mortgage, and dog to support.

[wnolens]

It's not always about burning passion, but sometimes about escaping a toxic environment that you bring home everyday or follows you like a dark cloud.

[brcmthrowaway]

Do you not have a partner than earns?

[lr4444lr]

I do, but I'm the main earner. And there were 2 or 3 times that she almost lost her job.

[apwell23]

why do you consider leaving though? just for variety?

[neutronicus]

Not the person you're replying to, but, personally, because my career is a Sword of Damocles.

There are projects, the time-scale is like a year, they can fail spectacularly, and it can be perceived as (may actually be) my fault. Projects from years ago can be understood, in hindsight, to have been fucked up. I fantasize about quitting and driving a bus, going home everyday having no doubt that the day's work met expectations. Giving my son a bath without feeling compelled to sneak away for another edit-compile-debug cycle.

It's becoming increasingly evident to me that I just want to stockpile savings against what feels like an increasingly inevitable crash-and-burn of this career. Be it GenAI, my own ADHD and lack of follow-through, whatever.

And when that day comes, just do something I can't fuck up

[analognoise]

It sounds more like a perspective issue than anything. Dev work is becoming more unstable - we’re now being sacrificed quarterly to appease the Shareholder Omnissiah - even the best of us.

The old deal was that “if you were good or smart you’d always have work” isn’t true anymore. Instead we have to just accept chronic instability - but we do have a choice!

…just stop doing extra. Stop it. Control yourself and re-evaluate what’s important. It’s a hard cycle to break, but I believe you can do it. Then if you get laid off or a project crashes, just shrug and onto the next one.

How can they really apply pressure to anyone if you’re subject to random layoffs? Eventually it will be your turn, so just chill to heal burnout, then instead of extra cycles for your job, do something you enjoy, maybe build a shelter in the woods somewhere, learn to live off the land, find a local source of body paint for your war band, learn to weld so you can build a mad max roadster in the coming wasteland apocalypse you know this isn’t coming out like how I expected; on closer inspection I also have a lot of anxiety about this “new normal” apparently?

[neutronicus]

> …just stop doing extra. Stop it. Control yourself and re-evaluate what’s important. It’s a hard cycle to break, but I believe you can do it. Then if you get laid off or a project crashes, just shrug and onto the next one.

That's why I need the savings. You're suggesting I behave like a man with leverage. Currently, I am not one.

FWIW, this current level of burnout-inducing commitment is because I am gunning for a promotion. If I get it, I will indeed pull back. Or, indeed, if I don't get it. One way or the other.

[apwell23]

> burnout-inducing commitment is because I am gunning for a promotion

Why are you gunning for a promotion

[wnolens]

After years of this in FANG/adjacent, I recently started a new job that isn't like this. I didn't know it really existed. But we work quarter to quarter on goals. If they slip, next quarter is fine, no stress. I work 9-5.

Re: AI. Ya I dunno. I imagine we'll ride the (10 year?) wave of being the principal AI tool users before we're replaced by an MBA and a prompt. More than enough to squirrel away money.

[lr4444lr]

Just the lingering endless possibilities of youth. I don't mind being a dev. Wouldn't say I _love_ it, but the stresses of the job really aren't that bad compared to other jobs I've had.

IME, people are often (not always) very bad at identifying the true source of their psychological stressors. When your life is unsatisfying for reasons that are your fault (or just very hard to fix) and hard to grapple with (e.g., your romantic life is awful, you hate your physical apperance, you antagonized your family, you're an addict, etc.), your working hours can feel intensely oppressive with that other stuff weighing on you and the newness of scenery and focus can appear like an attractive chance to escape. But it's often an avoidance tactic.

I have no idea if that's the OP's issue, but the great vagueness in his question about jumping careers sure raises red flags for me. The grass often isn't greener elsewhere, and the problems just follow you.

[ocular-rockular]

"You will have your golden handcuffs and you will like it!"

[jackdawed]

I got burnt out as a SWE at a startup from stress and health issues. Bought a cafe and turned it into a bookstore cafe. Annual revenue is around 600k. Seller's discretionary earnings is around 220k. In hindsight, I should have done this earlier. Not having to deal with office politics, insane on-call rotations, stress. On top of that, it helped me qualify for E-2 investor visa, which is far less of a headache than OPT/H-1B. It was a major help having an experienced business broker/commercial real estate agent.

[kdiego]

Interesting.

I'm a vegan and I've thought about opening a cafe that serves exclusively plant based drinks and food without explicitly/overtly advertising itself as "Vegan" (I find that even in progressive places like Bay Area, it brings out the worst in some people).

Branding it as a chill fun place to hang out and work, collaborate, etc.

I'm not hurting for money, so even if it can cover costs (hopefully returns some profit, but really just need to cover costs) that's fine with me.

Anyone down to try it out if they're on the same page as me? I'm down to commit at least $100k with 3-4 others, low key really serious.

Would be even more dope if we can get a building with a few studio apartments above it that we can turn into a 24/7 hacker cafe.

[idbnstra]

i’m vegan as well and would be interested in that, but i don’t have the money. would love to follow the process though if you have ever make a social media page for the cafe or something!

[kdiego]

I'm currently working on my startup, but I'll definitely write a post about this if I ever do it!

It is one of my plans :)

[coffeecloud]

220k earnings on 600k revenue? Does that mean your profit margin is 36% or am I missing something? I was under the impression that a successful coffeeshop runs like a ~3%-7% margin.

[jackdawed]

650k avg revenue for past few years, COGS around 350k, Gross Profit 300k, 80k expenses, SDE 220k, EBITDA 170k. Catering is also a major source of revenue.

[seffect]

Must be the books!

[RobertDeNiro]

Im surprised that owning a cafe and operating it is less stressful than doing dev work.

[jackdawed]

The cafe doesn’t wake me up several nights in a row at 3am.

[pfannkuchen]

If they have some decent money already from their previous life as a SWE it’s possible they don’t have to hit the same sort of numbers others in the cafe business are trying to hit. I’m guessing the stress comes from having to perform at a certain level sales wise.

[Kon-Peki]

You would know, right? How's Nobu doing?

[miketery]

Can you share more about how you went about this? How did you learn what’s needed to go through with this? Beyond knowing things like time value of money and the goal of making more revenue than costs.

[jackdawed]

The business sale was a transfer of assets sale, so the previous owner taught me everything.

[kkukshtel]

How did you find the business in the first place? Did you look at multiple options? etc.

[jackdawed]

BizBuySell. However, according to my broker, most business sales never make it to market. It's mostly through email lists and connections.

[throw9078686]

WOW, this is beautiful. Have you written publicly about this?

One of the things I am upset about is grocery prices and the fact that people buy unhealthy food to offset rising prices... I ask myself what an "open source grocery store" would look like.

Have you thought of "open sourcing" your business model so others can do something similar? Or learn from it? Either way, I'd love to hear more if you have anything public.

[jackdawed]

I can’t really talk much about this yet because legally, until my E2 visa is approved, I can only be in the owner role, not operator. Right now, I pay my friend to be the manager.

Once I am in the clear, I’d be happy to open source the process of acquiring a SMB and running it. I basically become a business broker myself for this one deal, thanks to the broker I worked with.

[kkukshtel]

Like other commenter said would love to know about how to do this. I've had a similar idea for opening up a boardgame store but it's hard to find any public numbers about expected operating costs/expenses to know how to plan or budget for things and how much of a loan I'd need to take to make it happen.

[shoo]

a board game store might be challenging if you are doing it as bricks & mortar retail and competing against online sellers. i think it can work but you would want to be somewhere with a lot of retail foot traffic. you are going to need to set your prices higher than online sellers to pay for rent. i don't have any numbers/insight.

as someone who enjoys playing boardgames, what i would caution against is trying to run some kind of boardgame cafe. the problem with that is you end up with customers like me playing a long game occupying a table for 3-4 hours. maybe everyone buys a drink and half the players buy a meal. the revenue per table per hour will be low compared to a normal cafe or restaurant where you could cycle multiple groups through the table in the same time, and where the expected revenue per customer would be higher.

the places where board game events thrive are where the fixed costs (rent, wages to staff a bar/kitchen, etc) are subsidised by something that isn't board games. i.e. where the venue is open anyway and has spare capacity to fill a few tables with board game players who stay for hours and do not spend money quickly. in australia this is often at a pub/club which has an old spacious venue with lots of tables, where the business is kept afloat by income from a room full of people losing money playing the pokies (slot machines).

[jackdawed]

Funny enough I am also planning to convert this cafe into a bookstore/board game shop. The best way to find these numbers is to work in a similar shop or be friends with the owner. Naturally, during business brokerage, you will also get these numbers after signing an NDA.

[ativzzz]

Best way is to go work at a cafe and ask a lot of questions about how things work

[itake]

if it was me, I’d sit in a café for 12 hours and track how much they earn to get an idea

[the_real_cher]

Just buy a cafe!

[seffect]

I think they left out the “…” bit before the “profit!”

[focom]

Awesome man! I am curious to know more about it though. I am thinking to take back my grand parent hotel but i am worried about the small town life

[tarsinge]

Adding to others wanting to know more! Maybe just the kind of city? I’m curious if that’s only viable in a big city.

[jackdawed]

Yes, this is really only viable in a major city. I wouldn’t consider doing this without at least 200k population in a major metro area. The area I’m in is 600k people with a heavy Laptop & Lattes ESRI tapestry segment. Basically it’s filled with software engineers.

[shoo]

jackdawed has shared a gem of actionable advice here for anyone reading the thread and thinking "i will also quit my terrible SWE job and pursue my dream of being a bookstore cafe owner/operator"

> Laptop & Lattes ESRI tapestry segment

https://www.esri.com/en-us/arcgis/products/data/data-portfol...

do market research!

"profitable bookstore cafe" is not the input, it is an output of a process of understanding the market and considering different business ideas.

don't anchor on a single kind of business idea, e.g. blindly executing a dream idea of "bookstore cafe owner/operator" without understanding the market and if there's enough demand to support a new bookstore cafe business in the area.

do market research and understand the market segments in areas you are considering opening a business in. understand the market segments and what they each demand and what the existing competition is. consider a bunch of different business ideas and focus on one that serves a particular market segment and meets some underserved demand that isn't being met by existing competitors.

[nicbou]

I run a website called All About Berlin now. I help people figure out life in a new country and navigate German bureaucracy.

It was a passion project that kept growing. Eventually I figured that I could live from it. It didn't pay as well, but I would no longer have to set an alarm in the morning or attend all-hands meetings.

This was about 4 years ago. I have no regrets. I had not realised how programming for a corporation utterly destroyed my passion. A few months after leaving, I started coding for fun again and never stopped.

[throw9078686]

As I get older, the idea of "coding for fun" is very much akin to "being an author" or "artist". I appreciate those who appreciate the craftsmanship of it all.

Kind of the difference between writing blogspam versus short stories, maybe?

Either way, great site + thank you for sharing.

[nicbou]

That's exactly how it feels. It's much nicer to create for the sake of it, without the tedium of meetings, tickets, sprints or even users.

Hell, there's even a difference between writing blogspam and high effort content about the same topic. I genuinely love delving into the minute aspects of German bureaucracy, because no one really put those details on the internet before.

Another aspect is that people genuinely appreciate my work. It's an awesome feeling, and it certainly kept me going.

[spacemadness]

Coding for a corporation makes me feel the same. It’s a lot of theatre and politics. It’s constant pressure for some unexciting feature you have no choice but to make and then they just lay everyone off to celebrate when it’s finished. Meanwhile the dev ops team is busy changing things to get promo and breaking everyone’s tools in the process while PMs trying to get promo pull their hair out trying to make everyone go faster. It can feel like hell on earth at some companies. And the only winners are the executives who are on another plane of existence from the average employee.

Anyway, congratulations on moving on and having some success.

[nicbou]

Coding for oneself is pure bliss in comparison. It's the office work part of software development that kills the fun. Now it's a much more pragmatic hobby with a touch of whimsy. I love it!

[thiago_fm]

You are living the dream. Compensation is pointless if you make enough and is satisfied with what you have.

Working like this can bring a lot of satisfaction because in the end you help a lot of people, like me (also a Berliner!).

In a big organization it's very unlikely that you'll get that kind of satisfaction.

[nicbou]

It plays a big role for sure. I do concrete things and get direct feedback. It's very different from the abstract cloud-wrangling I was doing at my last job.

I'm glad that the website helped!

[2color]

Thanks for making it Nicolas, All About Berlin is an immensely useful resource and has made the lives of so many newcomers to Berlin much easier.

[moralestapia]

If you don't mind, how does All About Berlin make money?

I don't see any ads or affiliate stuff in there (... and that's awesome, btw).

[nicbou]

Affiliate stuff. It's only on some pages. The immigrant's journey involves a few necessary purchases and I'm here to help them choose.

I'm pretty neutral with my recommendations, unless I really know what I'm talking about. I don't want it to turn into another shallow affiliate sales funnel.

[moralestapia]

You're doing a great job, it doesn't feel inadequate at all.

Congratulations!

[toddmorey]

I love your site & it’s a fantastic resource!

[nicbou]

Thank you! After all those years I still love getting this kind of positive feedback

[cosiiine]

I decided to leave the world of engineering 1.5 years ago to pursue my passion as an artist.

Although my salary was a very good, competitive US rate at senior level, my artwork brought in more income for 2 years straight. I decided that it wasn't worth burning my candle at both ends any more, especially with a young child at home. Something had to give, and it was the job.

Now I still work like an engineer. I spend 4-5 hours a day programming and 2-3 hours managing my commitments and social media. My artwork is generative, so I use Javascript to build elaborate systems which yield visual artworks.

The stuff I do is much more diverse now. I just spent an hour totally leveling a table I built recently. I needed a custom table for my Axidraw pen plotter, which I use to draw generative artworks.

The pay is nothing, then a lot, then nothing. I'm white-knuckling it. At times it's very scary to not have a steady stream of income. But it allows me to be happy, and that's worth more than any amount of comfort.

[headcanon]

Are you the artist from https://lostpixels.io/? If so I really love your artwork. I just got a pen plotter myself and I've been working on some original stuff, and yours is a big source of inspiration to me. Kudos!

[cosiiine]

Yup, that's me! And congrats on getting a plotter. That's how I got started on this journey too... I heard about plotters for the first time from HN, bought one, then 6 years later it's my focus.

[chucksta]

I have been fascinated with generated art drawings recently. Care to share any tips that's led to your current situation?

[cosiiine]

I bought a plotter and began using processing, then P5.JS to make things for it to draw. This was really just all for my own amusement and curiosity. Eventually I began selling the drawings I was making on Etsy, and gained some attention by posting regularly on Twitter under #plottertwitter. Now days, that still exists, but the action is also on Discord, Instagram, and Tiktok.

Once I had a little bit of a following, Casey Reas reached out about doing a group exhibition with Feral File that he was curating. That was a big moment. The release was very successful, and I saw that this path could be viable. It took me another year to fully commit to full time art though.

I think just immersing yourself and starting from the ground up is really important. Learn the basics, don't rush it, and educate yourself along the way. Study past plotter artists and pioneers like Vera Molnar and Harold Cohen. Find your style and iterate.

[yumraj]

Any recommendations regarding pen plotter - both targeting beginners as well as something to grow into.

[chucksta]

Awesome - really appreciate the full response

[Delmololo]

Wow.

I like your art but how do you make money with it?

[cosiiine]

I have tried a number of different things, including selling individual artworks, licensing, commercial projects, and NFTs.

By far NFTs have been my bread and butter. Cringe, I know. But past all of the scams, grifters, and bullshit, there are actually collectors and artists doing amazing and innovative work with code-based art. A lot (but not all) of the bad vibes have found something new to flip a quick buck on, and what's left are passionate folks. Not to mention places like Sothebys, MoMA, Christies, etc.

Why does generative art marry up with the blockchain? Because you can store code on-chain, and you can use the transaction hash to seed a PRNG. This allows the artist to issue a set of unique artworks all generated from the same algorithm.

To see what I mean, check out www.artblocks.io and fxhash.xyz.

[freetinker]

Love your artwork. Thanks for being so generous with your tips and insights – very inspiring.

[beauzero]

Bought a farm and went to work for a state government. Still doing dev but having a lot more day to day impact and when I leave at 5 I am done. Went on a contract and decided I liked what I saw from work life balance. Has let me step aside and let my wife and kids pursue their career while I focus on keeping animals inside fences and doing the laundry because everyone else is working 60-70 hour weeks. And no, none of them are in dev. They saw, or didn't see because I was never around, why it was a bad life choice for them I guess.

[throw9078686]

Very cool. Do you run a farm or has the purchase turned more into a rural home?

[PheonixPharts]

I left a another career to get into software in my 30s, but since you mention age, one thing worth recognizing is that very few careers are as age biased as tech. I worked in an industry were 40 was considered "young" and ever since I hit lates-30s in tech I've been the "old guy".

I also knew plenty of people in my previous career that came from tech, and seemed to have no trouble transitioning (but that was post-dotcom). It may be "hard to do so" now because increasingly the white collar job market is getting tighter which means people aren't looking to hire non-traditional candidates since they can usually find an equivalent candidate with more experience.

As other have mentioned, I think for most people the "hard" part is the change in income. Even with the decline in the tech space, tech workers still tend to get paid notably above other industries.

I think the real question boils down to: why are you transitioning? If you're sick of tech, or can't find a job it's going to be harder. If you're passionately obsessed with a new career and can't sleep at night without being compelled to study that area, you'll probably do fine. It also, of course, depends on the market for that job. If you're interested in a space that niche and packed with people then it will be hard, if you're interested in a new booming industry then it will be easier.

[ryandrake]

> one thing worth recognizing is that very few careers are as age biased as tech. I worked in an industry were 40 was considered "young" and ever since I hit lates-30s in tech I've been the "old guy".

I was called "grandpa" by my office mates in a job when I was 35. You can't get away with that overtness with today's word-policing, but even if the words are banned, I think the attitudes have not really changed.

[jvanderbot]

You mean leving programming? Can't help you there.

But if you want to change subfields...

I only know data scientists who come into my workplaces from other fields, and rarely know folks who move out into other fields. So these anecdata are heavily biased based on where I've worked.

1. Robotics has a huge gob of data every test, and parsing it is basically Sisyphean. Someone who can learn about, and educate others about, building proper observers and reporters into C++ codebases, and building proper dashboards with data coming out is always really valuable. From there it's a short hop into roboticsy systemsy things itself. But beware, large shops will have these silo'd. Think smallish labs for large companies. You do not want to get stuck building reports for product teams - stick to engineering teams.

2. Manufacturing, at the highest levels, is metrics driven, so again, getting in and helping to establish data-driven process refinements, then moving "down" the stack into the software is a good way to make your pivot into embedded systems or industrial IoT. But beware, large shops will have these very much silo'd.

3. Science / academia. A good analyst for a research lab is impossible to find, because of pay differentials. But if you can take the hit, and are willing to grovel a little, you can easily become the most valuable person in a large enough academic lab. The ones I've been adjacent to are Geophysics, Planetary Sciences, and Astrophysics. All really tough data problems.

[xtracto]

I would love #3 in a remote setting. I have a PhD (CompSci), live in UTC-6 (Mexico) and would be happy to take a pay cut if it meant leaving the tech product production grind. The best job I've had was as a data scientist/ML-expert on a previous US startup that went down in flames.

But it's pretty difficult to find those type of jobs willing to pay through Deel or Glob.Partners.

[jvanderbot]

Remote is too hard for lab settings usually. Professors / RAs are neurotic people and need "butts in seats". Moreover, sending US grant money to Mexico is often really hard (I've tried). The exception is if you know someone who can work some angles.

Try messing with scientific datasets and publishing a blog and seeing if you can replicate results or find new ones. If you can do that fluidly - you'll be a shoe-in for that type of work.

[killingtime74]

Grovel? For grants?

[larsiusprime]

I left video game development for statistical mass appraisal of real estate for property tax purposes when I turned 40. No regrets.

Completely the opposite of game development in every way.

[throw9078686]

How did you find the new opportunity/space? Was it an easy shift?

[larsiusprime]

My path was anything but conventional.

I had to leave game development because my seven year old son suffered a tragedy which completely disabled him. Game development is simply too volatile and risky a career for someone with that kind of family obligation.

As for the transition, I had accidentally achieved some recognition as a researcher of land economics through various blog posts. This attracted the attention of a new friend who was inspired by my work to put a startup together, seeing real estate mass appraisal as the most important missing piece for policy reasons, but also a potentially great business idea.

Investors agreed with him and a startup was formed. This gave me an alternative to game dev when I needed it most.

As for the actual work transition, I had a lot of subject matter to learn which we facilitated by hiring experts from the field, including former IAAO researchers (that’s the relevant standards body) as well as local appraisers.

I’m still learning but a lot of my skills transferred. The biggest difference is this is typically a pretty low tech field so many essential skills are soft — all the tech in the world doesn’t matter if you can’t explain things in simple terms to a citizen. As I like to say “Prepare for a property tax protest defense, not a PhD thesis defense.”

The other big difference is cost structure and expectations and competition. Game development is essentially selling one of the hardest kinds of programs to write, to the world’s best served audience, under maximum competition, for the lowest prices.

In local government you can charge what felt to me like large prices and still be genuinely considered cheap compared to what existing vendors charge. And people are used to software that doesn’t work and customer support that never responds. So if you can exceed expectations that is an edge here.

But many tech people have failed in this field, because they can’t master the soft skills and they can’t communicate simply; that part is deceptively hard.

[throw9078686]

Wow, definitely an interesting story. Sorry to hear about your son, though he's also lucky to have someone like you watching over him.

Thank you for sharing!

[rcpt]

Remarkably successful on both fronts btw

[larsiusprime]

Thanks for the kind words

[gmcerveny]

Early 40s and I've been sort of backing into music with this 20 year arc:

  - Full Stack Dev
  - iOS Dev
  - 2x Music Tech Startup Founder
  - Music Tech Freelance Developer
  - Currently: Studying music theory, composition, and piano.

I might go to grad school for music/media, continue to study art/music independently, or explore professional arts careers.

I'm just constantly seeking alignment between my professional work and intrinsic motivations.

[nurple]

Been thinking of going back to college (maths) myself in my post-40s age, but I'm struggling a bit to convince myself that it's going to be the best way to meet my learning goals. The degree itself, at this point in my career, isn't all that important to me, but the social and networking aspects could be quite valuable.

I'm curious if you've made similar considerations.

[gmcerveny]

Definitely.

Even considering preparation for a graduate music program I had the option of taking fundamental music courses at nearby schools or studying with an independent teacher. Ultimately I chose to go independent. That let me start immediately and offered flexibility in my own daily schedule. The graduate program professors I spoke with gave no preference to undergrad vs just demonstrating knowledge.

[savorypiano]

Do you think a university music program is needed to learn composition, or are there enough info out there to piece it together yourself (pardon the pun)?

For reference, I am an employed self taught software engineer (learned from MOCs) and have played piano many years along with theory basics already.

I haven't found many great resources yet, at least not in one place.

[mlyle]

Left a career as a developer/entrepreneur/executive for teaching at a private high school.

No real advice: it wasn't intentional; something that I just drifted to. It's really fulfilling but not lucrative.

[rcfox]

I don't know about other countries, but in Canada, you need a one or two year program to become a teacher, at least for public schools. Were you able to "drift" into this because your country has fewer regulations, or is it that private schools are less restrictive?

[Projectiboga]

In America, private schools are almost unregulated. They get "accredited" by a group that evaluates indeoendent schools. So basically anyone w college degree or beyond with no serious criminal history can teach.

[base698]

What kind of work did you do to become a teacher? Extra school?

[WarOnPrivacy]

Our rural county requires a Masters for FT. Subs need to be bathed and not be banned 1000' from a school.

[throw9078686]

This is very inspiring and just plain cool. Thank you!

[ItsBob]

In my case it was the opposite: I went from building infrastructure (mainly Windows servers and related tech) to becoming a software developer at 45.

I lost my job at the start of the COVID stuff (Feb 2020?) and couldn't find another. No one would take my calls and I found out from some recruiters that eventually spoke to me that they were getting thousands of applications per job: one got over 5000 for a £300 a day contract!

I got to the point I'd ran out of money, gov wouldn't help, was getting money from my parents to survive so I decided to lie on my resume.

Now, don't get me wrong: I'd been programming since the 90s. I knew SQL server like the back of my hand and could programme .NET with the best of them but I'd never done it as a primary job (partly fear - didn't think I was good enough but turns out I was pretty fucking awesome at it :D) so I changed my resume to make it look like I had been doing it for years in various roles and got a job in 2 weeks!

I'm now an architect and couldn't be happier... the money definitely helps.

I'm looking to do my own thing though as I'm done with the corporate life.

However, I can't knock it too badly: In 4 years I've gone from being in serious financial shit to paying off my mortgage a month ago :)

[wnolens]

> so I changed my resume to make it look like I had been doing it for years in various roles and got a job in 2 weeks! I'm now an architect and couldn't be happier

Amazing, congrats. Sounds like you deserve it!

[apwell23]

I tried teaching skiing for a while but pay was low and living conditions weren't good for my family.

I am back to the grind being a software engineer but I don't have passion for it like I used to. politics at worked killed that. Recent AI hype like DevinAI are repulsive to me but i don't know what else to do.

[snakeyjake]

The thought of staring at an IDE window (it was Eclipse back in the day) all day made me want to start sniffing glue so I learned SolidWorks and relearned linear algebra and used my amateur radio experience to fake my way through conversations about RF and became an engineer working on synthetic aperture radar systems.

Instead of shoveling frameworks on top of each other I started building real things that flew in pods on aircraft and got launched into space.

Now it's been a while so I've transitioned into doing more meetings than engineering, but I get two months off per year so I go scuba diving in warm places a lot and that makes up for it.

My only advice is to invest in yourself and never take a leap unless you can see what you'll be landing on. Both metaphorically and in the real world.

[DustinBrett]

I went the other way and pivoted to being a dev when I turned 30. Before that I was in IT which basically meant fixing computers, which meant replacing power supplies and reinstalling Windows.

[bongodongobob]

How did you break through? I've been trying to land a dev job for years but I keep getting passed on due to my heavy IT infra experience and they seem to think I'm overqualified, but in the wrong area. "Hm, why would you want an entry level dev job? It says here you have years of director level experience." I don't want to be in management but they seem to think I'm a flight risk or something.

[xnyan]

Similar background, what worked for me was taking a somewhat unglamorous job that was as close to dev as I could find, in an industry that has a hard time attracting talent. In my case, I got a job as an admin/developer for a hospital's ServiceNow instance. I spent as much time as possible on the dev side of the job, then moved to dev full time for a year, then transfered internally to a developer role in the engineering department.

The hospital bit was key for me both in getting started, and maybe more importantly for the transfer from admin that scripted to developer in engineering. They have a huge demand for people who can program, but the pay is "goodish" at best, and the culture is...slow and crufty. Lots of room for growth, and they are more willing to accept non traditional backgrounds. Best of luck.

[maliker]

I pivoted from tech consulting (logging user issues, basically) to dev by taking a contract programmer role. It was in a non-profit org that didn't really understand software, and I built them a prototype in my own time which got me in the door. Then I worked up to engineering manager, a move I would not recommend (back to logging user issues).

[gonzo41]

Look for backend style work. Your infra experience is an asset, look towards cloud infra and all the programming stuff around that. Dev work ain't no panacea, there's a lot of CRUD work, and even when you get to do cool stuff like build data warehouses it's still just fancy CRUD work.

[withinboredom]

Dumb down your resume. Mine's currently missing an entire decade, leaving out entire details for the things that are there, etc.

If you keep running into an "employment experience" issue but you actually do know what you are doing, a dev I know used to be a maths teacher, created an LLC with a dumb name and created a consulting website. Then after a couple of years of no leads, simply listed themselves as an employee at said LLC on their resume. They are also one of the best devs I've ever had the pleasure of working with.

[Lyngbakr]

I had a somewhat similar experience moving from science to data science/engineering. A PhD meant I fit your description of "overqualified, but in the wrong area". Those days were hard and hugely demoralising. Until my résumé landed on the desk of someone who'd made the same career change, I was SOL.

[DustinBrett]

I had to start again from the bottom. I found a 2 person startup consultancy that needed someone who knew computers but also could program a bit. I had been coding since I was a kid but knew nothing about it besides how to make little stuff. You need to imagine you are just starting your career again out of school (with no degree). I worked at that startup for over 3 years, then moved to a slightly bigger company that was even more focused on software and on good practices. Then jumped again a few years later, and finally made it to working at Microsoft where I have been for 2+ years. So it was a nearly 7 year journey before I was doing software at the place I wanted to end up.

[nurple]

Learn Ops. All operations in decent orgs these days _is_ software engineering, and a large swath of those who do it lack deep infra experience and rely a lot on trial and error in more complicated configurations.

[johndavid9991]

It was not a complete transition, but I decided to build my own Software Development company instead of working as a software engineer for another company.

I started this company along with 12 other co-workers. We are in our 30s, I am turning 34 this year. In the last three months, we have focused on training people. We have a team of 45 people now from overseas.

The main reason for building this company is for me to have more control on my own time, that's the idea at first, but somehow my passion for software engineering has been rekindled. There is something about training people, I enjoy working with our developers and seeing them grow.

I find it hard to switch to another industry or field of work at this age. Having your own family, with the kids and other responsibilities, makes it hard to reinvent yourself. You are not as free as before when you are still single and have complete control over your time.

[makeitshine]

I transitioned from software in my mid-20s to teaching and am now looking to transition back. Personally, I'd like something at the intersection of education and tech. I'm currently working for a startup doing backend dev, and it's ok, but I miss some elements of teaching.

[rapfaria]

It's crazy how prevalent this is among my peers. Do any other careers have so much pivoting?

[spicyusername]

I think most other careers don't pay you enough to be capable of choosing take a 50-90% pay cut mid-career and still retire on a reasonable nest egg.

I also think working for most corporations is pretty lackluster, and after the early career honeymoon phase wears off many people start to feel quite unfulfilled.

Working with your hands, or in support of helping other people, is very intrinsically rewarding work. There are reasons society gets away with paying public school teachers so little, and only some of them have to do with the public's distain for taxes, hah.

IT professionals are typically the kinds of people who are happy to learn something new, so I'm not too surprised to see the people with the financial means, the disposition, and the mid-life crises search for a new life path.

[WarOnPrivacy]

> It's crazy how prevalent this is among my peers.

Are your peers about the age as the OP?

Kids and age (each) can change how we feel about job demands.

[jvanderbot]

Most folks change entire careers 3-4 times in their life. It's only in engineering that we somehow decide that "engineering for this team using their tool" is somehow a new "career" when we do "engineering for that team using that tool".

To an outsider, you're just a programmer. No career change at all. I think there's just enough variety in our field that we don't leave much.

[sanderjd]

> Most folks change entire careers 3-4 times in their life.

Is this true? It doesn't seem true to me. Are there data / studies on this?

[lizknope]

I can only think of about 3 people that completely changed profession. I'm 48 and I could list hundreds of people that have been engineers, scientists, doctors, and lawyers since they finished college and are either still doing the same type of job or retired.

[jvanderbot]

Most folks aren't professionals. If you are a farm laborer for a few years, then a hair stylist, then a cook - that's two career changes.

My professional white-collar wife has done 3 changes already and we're barely middle-aged. I've done 2 myself (factory worker -> Researcher -> Engineer).

My Mom has done about 5-6. My dad 1. My mother in law has done at least 5, and my father in law at least 3.

My brother has done 2 (soldier -> sales -> design). My 4 bros-in-law have done at least 3 each (all starting with soldier).

Sis in law has done 0. My sisters are 3,2 and are still young.

Does my story cancel yours? no, but the story isn't clear either.

[sanderjd]

How many of these things are "careers", though? To me, many of these examples sound like doing a bunch of different jobs, not careers.

Was being a factory worker a career, or was that a job you were doing before you started your first career as a researcher?

But I do think this thread is making me realize that this is probably a boring dispute over what "career" means.

[jvanderbot]

In the US, BLS doesn't classify "career change" b/c there's no clear definition of one. But there's lots of articles that claim this, and it matches my experience from my professional friends.

BLS does say you'll switch jobs about 12 times in your career.

[sanderjd]

Jobs, sure, no debate there.

And I will stipulate that there are some definitions of "career change" that I guess seem plausible, for which "3-4" seems reasonable for "most people", but I dunno, those definitions still seem like a stretch to me...

Should it count as a "career change" when I went from working at a pizza shop early in college to doing test prep and tutoring in the middle? Or from that to little freelance contract programming projects later? That was a number of different "jobs", but I think zero "careers". Or has it been a career change when I've left different kinds and sizes of software companies in various industries for other ones of other sizes and kinds in different industries? Or when I've switched roles from pure individual contribution to more technical leadership? This is also a bunch of different jobs, but I think of all of it as one single career...

I think of a career change as being from one thing a person has done for long enough to be skilled and successful at it, to another thing requiring training (formal or informal) on a new set of skills. Is it actually common to do that 3-4 times? I do know a fair number of people who have done this once. I can't think of a single person I know, of any age, who has done it more than twice. And the one person I know who has done it twice gets a bunch of good-natured ribbing about always being in training and spending hardly any time doing.

Is this just a definition thing? Is my bar for what is a different career unusually high?

[Nextgrid]

I wonder if it’s just self-selection. If you play your cards right, IT can (could?) pay so well that you can afford to take a subsequent pay cut when transitioning to a new career. In a career that doesn’t pay as well this is impossible so people don’t even consider career changes as they can’t afford to take the hit.

[WarOnPrivacy]

> about engineers or data scientists choosing to leave the space to a new one

You mentioned leaving space and leaving career. In my mind these could be different things. What are your thoughts about potential destinations?

[dr_kiszonka]

I have no advice, but I am curious what new careers you are considering. (One successful transition I have seen was getting an MBA from a prestigious school and moving into leadership.)

[throw9078686]

I'm more on the data sci side right now, and am interested in commodities trading and geopolitical analysis. Less lucrative (well, the latter is, anyway) but seems more important + interesting.

I'm not posting because I'm making an imminent decision, though -- more that I see people discuss transitions every once in a while and am curious what challenges they see + how they overcame them.

Thank you for asking!

[sanderjd]

Something I think I might like to do if / when I'm closer to financial independence, that sounds like it might be up your alley as well, is write about some deep and interesting topic. Basically, be a beat journalist with a self-driven beat that is heavy on empirical analysis.

For me, and my current interests, this would be climate and energy technology, a la heatmap.news. For you, maybe something in the commodities and geopolitical analysis space.

It's easy to make fun of how everyone has a newsletter and a podcast now, but at the heart of that is that it truly is the case that there has never in history been a better time to do reporting on interesting things, and possibly even find a large enough audience for it to be a real and sustainable vocation.

[apwell23]

What kind of leadership did they move to. Most leaders in tech space don't seem to have an MBA.

[sanderjd]

Depends on the size of the company. Most big companies, even in tech, do have people with MBAs in most of the executive roles. Not front-line people managers that is, but leadership, decision-makers.

[ryandrake]

Yea, take it from someone who tried to do this: (MBA from reasonably good top-10 school)

1. The degree itself, even from a top school, doesn't guarantee you anything. It opens a few doors in finance (Investment Banks) and consulting, but you still need to fight your way through them. Wall Street also doesn't really like career changers, so it's already an uphill battle before you even enroll.

2. Silicon Valley doesn't seem to give even a tiny shit about the degree. In fact MBAs get regularly dunked on here at HN (as if the degree itself turns a smart engineer into a drooling dumbass, but whatever). So if your plan is to get an MBA to zoom back to tech to become a Director or VP or something, your plan is flawed.

I wasn't successful at either of these paths, so I went right back to "Individual Contributor" software engineering after spending 6 months unemployed hopelessly looking for an investment banking job. So the degree ended up being a waste.

[apwell23]

Thats why i was intrigued by that comment. Bunch of my friends got an MBA because their employer paid for it but do the same job as dev like me years later.

Still curious about "getting an MBA from a prestigious school and moving into leadership" how they did it.

[ryandrake]

> Still curious about "getting an MBA from a prestigious school and moving into leadership" how they did it.

Yea, I'd love to know the secret too. I could be making 5X what I'm making now.

[cwiz]

Hard science?

[sanderjd]

This is what I want to do. By far my favorite roles in my career have been when I get to work with deep domain experts in some research-oriented niche. I'm in one of these right now (in the clean energy space) and it's awesome. It's very motivating for me to collaborate with them and build tooling to accelerate their work.

But it also makes me feel that, even though I'm in my late 30s, when I grow up, those people I love working with are who I want to be.

It may or may not prove to be unrealistic, but my plan is, after my kids are a bit older and we have saved a bit more liquid assets and have refinanced to a lower mortgage payment, to enter a graduate program for something interesting, and maybe keep working on software part time while I do that.

[adamc]

I'm old and more likely to retire than start anew, but that's something that still calls to me. Got a doctorate in anthropology but wasn't entranced by academia. But science itself is interesting. In retrospect, I think I should have gone with physics, but... my dad did that, and it's a tough gig in many respects. (Governmental research funding is very inconsistent.)

[lnwlebjel]

When you're retired, and don't need the funding, there are plenty of under- or un-funded research projects that can be done. The right professor would likely be open to collaboration/guiding work like this, particularly if your PhD augments the skill set of their group/lab. You don't need them necessarily, but it might help to bring you up to speed with publishing (assuming that's your goal - and if you're doing research, I think it should be. You want the work to persist after you if possible). Proposer and funders are pretty good at figuring out good use of limited resources, but they just can't fund everything and there are many un-turned stones.

[TimJRobinson]

I moved into research at a Venture Capital firm. Mostly doing due diligence on companies, assessing new technologies, thinking about where the industry is going.

I love it, was getting sick of the constant framework and language churn in programming and I enjoy having a wider view of everything happening rather than just working on one company/product.

[tlavoie]

Went from software dev to infosec consulting here. Basically, one of the people I worked with at the prior job moved first, then asked, "if I knew anyone who might be interested." After not cluing in immediately, she asked again. "Oh... um, yeah! Let's chat."

I still mess with code all the time, but mostly scratching my own itch, either for home or work.

[hnthrowaway0328]

Any Data Engineer managed to go into low level programming jobs? Very interested.

[LettuceSand12]

Anyone went from software dev to GIS? How did you make the transition?

[fhub]

Nearly everyone I know who wanted to stop coding took a product manager role, founded a company or became an investor of some sort. All leveraging relationships and connections.

[cjk2]

Well you can move into anything but it depends if you want to get paid or not for it? I've mostly followed the money.

[charlie0]

I would not pivot unless I hit FIRE or can switch to a field that pays almost as well.

[seffect]

And when a full solar eclipse crosses the Everest peak while I ascend the last 100 metres to the top.

[charlie0]

It's all in the timing and not carrying too many unnecessary things; it is possible.