[afpx]

What would be examples of non-western morality? theocracy, authoritarian over democratic, hierarcical caste systems, gender inequality, arranged marriages, corporal punishment, honor killings, tradition over critical thinking? Honest question - I have been seeeing this type of criticism lately here. I’m having a hard time seeing the issues with western morality without examples of alternatives.

[seadan83]

Non western is the rest of the world. It's a big place, lots of cultures. Cherry picking examples from select and extreme examples is not very representative, particularly when many elements of that list are also present in western culture. For example, Women equality is not there yet, look at pay gap. Another example, the 1964 US election was the first where everyone could truly vote (that is incredibly recent for a society that values 'equality')

I will mention western morality can be used as a sleight too. Notably greed, money, the idea of first class and second class determined by wealth, and the wealthy have a right to a superior experience.

It's a mixed bag. Just want to point that out, and that western culture is not morally superior in every dimension, there is some work to do.

[afpx]

You’re avoiding the question and basically saying that western morality shouldn’t be followed just because some people don’t follow it. Just give me examples of the better alternative so I can understand your perspective.

Also, I’m not cherry picking. I spent a considerable amount of time searching online for examples, and that’s what I found.

Edit: I want to be clear - I'm not judging you. I was raised a classical liberal so I don't know any better. That is, I feel that you can believe what you want. I just find HN to be a leading indicator, so I'm trying to plan accordingly because I see this as a trend.

[Terretta]

> "better"

That's the issue.

You may be unable to Google examples of your own culture you disagree with, and the ones from "other" cultures you disagree with, you consider yourself enlightened and "know" your take is better, so they don't count as good examples either.

That said, I imagine you could imagine yourself role playing as, say, an authentically devout member of the Taliban, searching online, and finding examples of "worse" and "better" that don't match the ones you here are finding.

Now, you'd likely argue the Taliban believer is misinformed, and that "better" is some universal thing. That's all well and good when "better" seems modern and "worse" seems archaic.

It's more problematic when the differences are not what UN calls "universal", but values system based, from a value system that is internally coherent however different.

[seadan83]

> You’re avoiding the question

Hard to answer such a question. It's not well formulated. The set of non-western morality is all of the rest of them. Name any morality and you can likely find an example from present day and/or history where it is stronger or weaker than the western equivalent. In some cultures, there will be moralities that do not even exist in the west.

Western morality is generally rooted in christian morality. If the idea is that morality cannot exist without christian morality, I would suggest that is a very myopic view. If we reject that view, then by definition there must be examples. (I would probably argue that anyone with the view that the only morality possible is christian morality, and without that there is no morality - I'd argue they are a theocrat).

So, the most direct answer to the question is: "all of them."

Think of Buddhism, stronger value on life. Think of Japan, stronger value on honor. Think of places with universal healthcare, there is a stronger value on equality and that those with money are not the only ones who get to have medical treatment. Think of the parable of the fisherman and banker: https://medium.com/life-lemons/what-you-can-learn-from-a-mex...

Another example, Western/christian morality usually does not ascribe animals as having a soul. There is therefore no moral issue in factory farming. I don't view millions of creatures living in those conditions as moral. Buddhists would go even further, they don't even kill insects because all life is utterly sacred to them.

Another example, the "7th generation" tradition/morality of Native Americans. Namely, the concept is that a person's use of the land and resources should be sustainable such that those resources would still be there 7 generations from now (which is essentially the descendents of your descendents whom you will never know). That level of respect for land and environment is not there in western morality.

> basically saying that western morality shouldn’t be followed just because some people don’t follow it.

Not at all what I'm saying. I said it's a mixed bag. Western morality is not superior on every dimension compared to every other society that exists or has ever existed. Nor is western morality inferior to everything else - it's a mixed bag. I'm not making a judgment or recommendation for what people should follow.

I've come to learn that whenever a society/culture believes that it is better in every way to everything else, it's propoganda. This is more what I'm saying, people often have a superiority complex for their family/town/country/religion/morales (where all of the kids are above average). For example, the soviet union was not better in every way than the USA, and vice versa too. To drill in, the Soviet Union kinda effectively had a universal basic income. Meanwhile, Vietnam US veterans were returning & found no jobs and many went homeless (zero safety net). On the other side, the average quality of life in the soviet union was worse, lower health expectency, far worse healthcare, almost no goods available outside of the basic goods, and social mobility was far less than the US. It's a mixed bag.

> Also, I’m not cherry picking. I tried to find examples online, and that’s what I found.

That is kinda the definition of cherry picking, whether intentional or not, those are the examples you happen to have found. Is there any coincidence that list is entirely negative? Further, from that list, I'd suggest many of those negative moralities exist in western morality as well.

- theocracy: western morality being from christian morality - all those people who say the US constitution is rooted in "God's law" - that's theocracy. It's quite strong in the west, a place historically where there have been many theocracies.

- authoritarian over democratic: This is a struggle in Western morality still. Examples, the US overthrew democractically elected leaders of several nations and replaced with a dictator (EG: Iran & Panama). Historically, colonialism is a creature of Europe (the west), and colonial empires is extremely anti-democratic. Consider the people of Puerto Rico today - taxation without representation. Which is to say, it's not all ancient history, but in lots of ways is recent history and is still present day today. Which is to say, this is not a universal western value and is still being debated/fought today. You can also look to some examples like Father Coughlin of the 1930s, an American Nazi sympathizer that had "At the height of his popularity in the early 1930s, some 30 million listeners tuned in to hear his emotional messages" [1]

- hierarcical caste systems: India banned this in 2013. This is a pretty isolated example in a way considering it's just one region of the world. I would counter that there are other hierarchical systems in the West as well. Even in the US, for a long time, and still today. Consider typhoid Mary for example, she did not want to stop being a cook because that was the best job someone of her class could get. There is the "old" and "new" money concept in the US, and let's not ignore slavery. Which.. the US is still coming to grips with how to structure society after it had such a strong hierarchal system where the lowest members were not even considered human (they were slaves, property). A lot of historians note that the US is still dealing with the questions and ramifications of Reconstruction even today (from this perspective, 100 years is basically nothing, it's recent history; the US civil war was not that long ago). So, all is to say, a caste system based on wealth is not that dissimilar in ways.

- gender inequality: plenty of this in the West. As a counter-example, consider that many non-western societies are matriarchies.

- arranged marriages: This was/has been a thing in the West as well.

- corporal punishment: US penal system can be described as this in ways. The US prison system is far worse than many others. Getting 10 years in jail for possession of small amounts of drugs and then everything that happens to be people in prison.. Grant it, it's not flogging.

- honor killings: "Many Muslim leaders in the US say that Islam does not promote honor killings and that the practice stems from sexism and tribal behavior that predates the religion" [2]. The idea of honor killings can take different forms, and it's not unique. Consider as well that many people are disowned by their families if they are gay. What is more though, the idea that this is a "non-western" morality is a extremely debatable, and is going after a small example to potentially emphasize confirmation bias.

- tradition over critical thinking: I listened to a preacher that came to my university college campus that lamented that there was no god in the university. That god should be taught in every class, physics & math included (which by definition those studies precludes god). The idea that the world can be left as an open-sewer, that the atmosphere cannot be ruined because God would not allow it and would rapture up everyone soon anyways - those are still pretty mainstream ideas in the West rooted in tradition. Consider yet more examples, "A League of their own" - traditionally women do not wear pants, yet any critical thinker would realize you want to wear pants when playing baseball. There's plenty of anecdotes and examples to put into question whether this is truly a western morality or not.

[1] https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/holocau...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_St...

[seadan83]

All of the above is to say, western morality is not all good (nor is it all bad), but the same goes for all the rest. To know more about further examples, that is an ignorance you need to work on personally to cure. Travel outside of the West & read more history. When travelling, culture shock is a real thing, it's striking to learn that others in the world actually think fundamentally differently, they have different values, and in some cases it's even a good thing (and sometimes not, but the fact it's different, it helps break the mold of your own experiences).

[afpx]

That's a very thorough reply and way more than I expected. I appreciate it, and it'll make me think more about this.

[jfim]

Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize how some people could justify things like factory farming and environmental depletion, and your explanation makes a lot of sense.