[zug_zug]

Slightly off-topic, but one of my greatest pet-peeves of working in devops is every few years a new "killer tech" comes out that some contingent of very-highly-opinionated (though not always very senior) people insists is life-and-death stakes and wants the whole company to move to (e.g. terraform).

Too often it's a failure. Too often it has some upsides, but also is a LOT of work that is discovered over time. Too often it's seen as good BUT now some incompatible new version or alternative requires the whole debacle start again.

I only want to learn technologies that will be relevant until the day I retire, otherwise I'm not advancing, it's all just a treadmill.

[culi]

If you think devops has it bad, don't ever work in front-end. Or web development in general

[NewJazz]

Lol @ svelte's reactive statements being lauded then runed.

[waynesonfire]

You have to carve your own path. I've experienced the same revelation and have adopted FreeBSD and Erlang. It's for hobby / home use but if I ever launch it'll be on this stack. It's been a rewarding journey. YMMV, but this is how I dealt with this situation.

[playingalong]

Would you classify k8s in this bucket?

[zug_zug]

I'm still debating that. Certainly on the one hand it seems like there's already dozens of different incompatible variants/tools/setups/workflows to learn [most of which will be zombies in 5 years]. If I had to pick -- my gut instinct is kubernetes will be around for 5 more years but won't be common in 20 years.

[tail_exchange]

What is going to replace it?

[scarface_74]

Welcome to technology.

Yes, I too wish I could make a living programming in 65C02 assembly on my Apple //e like I did in 1986.

I also don’t see any reason I have to learn about S3 instead of storing all of my files on an on prem CDRW jukebox

[zug_zug]

No, it's not inevitable. There are many technologies that will outlast my whole career: java, sql, tcp/ip, linux, to name a few.

S3 will also certainly be around in 20 years.

[scarface_74]

That’s true. But when I was first learning Java, Java beans and Java Server Pages were the hotness. The last time I did production code in Java was writing Android apps that required knowing the Android SDK.

Programming in Java in 2024 is nothing like it was in the 1990s when it was first embedded in Netscape Navigator - yeah I played around with it back then.

When I was first using C and C++, I was writing Windows apps with MFC in 1999. Good luck if that’s all you know in 2024z

I’ve been at this awhile. I started writing C and Fortran apps on DEC Vax and Stratus VOS mainframes in 1996z

My second job was part development and part managing Windows servers on prem running IIS and Classic ASP.

I got my first, only, and hopefully last job at BigTech in the cloud consulting department at 46 (full time role) consulting companies on all of the latest “serverless” goodness.

Either evolve or end up complaining on HN about “ageism”. When I got Amazoned at 49 last year, it took all of three weeks to have multiple offers. I’ll put my buzzword compliance against anyone of any age in my niches.

While “tcp/ip” will be around as will assembly language. I’ve programmed in assembly language on five different architectures either professionally or as hobby. I haven’t touched it since 2008. Jobs are at a higher level of abstraction these days.

[nwmcsween]

100%, technology evolves, sometimes to a dead end but it keeps moving and it's an interesting, frustrating and fun ride.

[JohnMakin]

if moving to terraform fails for your org, you have much deeper issues that likely aren’t related to terraform

[zug_zug]

I didn't downvote, but I disagree. You put forth the question of when a company might rightly not use terraform and I think I can answer that.

I think of terraform as a form of insurance. It's "Oops manual change" insurance. In the event that somebody breaks something in the console and you need to undo it, it's exponentially faster-easier. However you have to pay premiums to get this insurance as well as a setup cost.

So is the insurance worth it? It depends on the org. But I've seen small places where it's a small team that communicates well and nobody screws around in the console with stuff they don't understand (and if they break it they can own it). So there absolutely are places where the amount of time terraform costs you (in learning, setup, and extra PR time, waiting for atlantis to finish, locks) is higher cost than the time saved when you need.

[quesera]

> if moving to terraform fails for your org, you have much deeper issues that likely aren’t related to terraform

That is nonsense.

You just said, equivalently, "Terraform is all things to all people".

[JohnMakin]

No I didn't. Failing to adopt an IAC approach, which I have seen in my career many times, whether it's terraform or any of the other tools - comes down to organizational issues.

I'll pose a question to your snotty response - What specifically about terraform would lead to it failing to be implemented at a company? The answer to that will provide all you need.

[quesera]

I'm not being snotty. Terraform is not the best choice for every organization.

Rather, Terraform does not add value within every organizational structure. Not adding value is failing. Having a negative ROI is failing.

None of these infrastructure tools are perfect, and the ways in which they are imperfect mean that some are better or worse matches for an organization's needs.

Therefore your initial statement is oversimplified, presumptuous, and ultimately nonsensical. A logical reframing is "if your organization does not match Terraform's strengths, then your org is the problem", and that is clearly not true.

[JohnMakin]

You're shifting goalposts now and still failed to answer my question. And since you seem to have cracked the long-known problem of measuring infrastructure/devops/etc. team performance (since apparently you have a way to measure the ROI on that) I'm assuming you're far above my expertise here and have it all figured out, and I'm in over my head and have clearly struck a nerve. Glad you figured out a problem that so many haven't! have a good day.

[quesera]

The answer is that they all suck. I've used them, and I've written them. They sucked 20 years ago, and they suck today.

But they suck differently, for different reasons, and they suck in different magnitudes in the hands of different teams, with different needs.

I have never met an org that was happy with their infrastructure tooling! But I have met some that were happier with some tools than with others.

It's horses for courses. Terraform is a contender for some use cases. Nothing more, nothing less.