[iknownothow]

I think everyone should watch the Not Just Bikes YouTube channel especially their series on Strong Towns [1]. It shows just how bad parking mandates are and just how bad American car centric city planning is. As they article pointed out, you need such vanguard cities to pave the way for better cities, with less parking and fingers crossed, fewer cars.

[1] https://youtu.be/y_SXXTBypIg?si=N8PF71wMhVv6aH9G

[p0w3n3d]

why not both? why not good parkings and nice bicycle routes?

[iknowstuff]

Parking takes space. Outdoor parking keeps everything far apart, less walkable and unpleasant for anyone outside of a car. It also costs a fuck ton of money and is environmentally damaging. If you want good parking you gotta be willing to shell out its real unsubsidized cost of $10-$20/h in a multilevel garage.

[antonkochubey]

$10-20/hr is $7200 - 14400 per month. Is rent of 10 square meters really that expensive whereever it is that you live?

[iknowstuff]

Short term parking is indeed that expensive, depending on the garage. Obviously cheaper in less desirable areas.

[close04]

GP was probably referring to the value of the land. There are very few places in the world where land is rented for ~$1500/sqm/month. I don't live in the US but took San Francisco as a reference for an expensive city in terms of land and parking.

A quick look on real estate websites [0] suggests you can buy land in San Francisco quite central for $10k-15k per square meter.

If we take the value of the service, parking prices for San Francisco [1] are as high as $7/h and as low as free (at night).

Unless I looked in all the wrong places or my math needs triple checking, the numbers you're very adamant about look wildly misaligned with reality even for peaks, let alone for average or median. That doesn't bode well at all for any opinion based on them. And it encourages the other side of the conversation to come with equally unrealistic claims about the cost and impact of "my biking lanes".

In your top comment you recommended the Not Just Bikes YouTube channel. But it either didn't correct these views or worse, it encouraged them. Not a stellar recommendation.

[0] Zillow but the URL us ungodly long. Easy to check it by yourself though.

[1] https://www.sfmta.com/demand-responsive-parking-pricing

[resolutebat]

GP did not mention San Francisco? Weekday parking in NYC garages starts from $20/hr, and $50/hr is not unheard of.

[lwansbrough]

Cars kind of ruin cities in a lot of ways. It's like asking why not embrace cancer, in some ways literally.

[p0w3n3d]

I live in Europe. If I even tried to commute with my children to music school using public transport it would take me additional 3 hours a week.

That's why I am asking, is really car equal to cancer? Or is it this "I cannot see other people's needs if they are different than mine" or maybe "I will use law to ban other people from thinking otherwise" attitude?

[lwansbrough]

In North America, motorists generally believe that any place not accessible by car is inaccessible. When you have a culture so deeply attached to driving, it reinforces the need to drive. This is why I call it a cancer. Motorists cannot live in a vacuum while also demanding that they be able to drive everywhere out of "convenience". That, and the fact that cars produce a huge number of carcinogens for people living in cities.

Here's how the needs of drivers usually work: I want to live outside the city center, therefore I create the need to drive because I chose to live away from transit. This problem is mostly self inflicted out of a privilege of choice. So I am not particularly empathetic towards it.

As far as using laws to ban natural human behaviour, what are your thoughts on: jaywalking? pedestrians crossing against red lights when there is no car traffic in sight? people walking on the shoulder of highways (sometimes the only infrastructure available)? Mandatory use of sidewalks? Parking minimums when building a house? There are laws governing all of these in the US (and some apply in Europe too) which ban the free movement of pedestrians. If cars are so dangerous that we have to enforce laws around simply walking in order to maintain safety, there's something wrong.

[pandaman]

>In North America, motorists generally believe that any place not accessible by car is inaccessible.

This sounds more like a projection than actual fact. Do you seriously believe that motorists generally believe that Hawaii is inaccessible? Puerto Rico? England? Japan? China? Or do you mean on a smaller scale - ski slope tops, trails, parks, and other pedistrian-only areas in the cities? How did you figure this?

[lwansbrough]

Mostly referring to ie. public access parks that are closed to cars, streets that have been closed to traffic, temporary bike lanes. Drivers feel as though these are punishments foisted upon them simply because they exist and do not serve them as motorists.

These are my observations as a pedestrian, cyclist, and motorist.

[Mawr]

Wouldn't it be nice if the only other car traffic on the road was there because of use cases similarly niche to yours? Public transportation is great at eliminating the need for using a car for completely overkill trips like commuting and basic shopping.

Having said that, given good cycling infrastructure, chances are you could either bring your kids along on a cargo bike [1] or they could just ride there themselves [2].

[1]: https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=84

[2]: https://youtu.be/oHlpmxLTxpw?t=18

[snerbles]

It is very much the latter, fueled by self-righteous conviction that is indignant at the mere idea of nuance.

[pjc50]

People can build parking if they want, but mandating it is a huge distortion.

[nunez]

Because good parking encourages car use, increased car use encourages wide, high-speed roads, and bike routes are impediments to the development of wide, high-speed roads.

[seoulmetro]

I think everyone should be wary that this channel is extremely biased and hands out rose tinted glasses for a lot of things. There are better channels out there if you truly care about planning. This one is just an emotional mess at most times.

[iknownothow]

Nope, I disagree. It should be the first thing you watch before you move onto more technical videos. The videos are pleasant to watch and are made by a Canadian who moved to the Netherlands. They've got excellent A and B roll footage that truly shows you the contrast between American/Canadian and European cities.

And it should be emotional because a commute isn't just about efficiency. One spends a sizeable portion of their life commuting. The human aspect of it can't be ignored. The depressing feeling you get while standing in the middle of a Walmart parking lot is real. At least it was for me.

[whelp_24]

Not Just Bikes is a convincing advocacy channel. But just because you agree doesn't mean you should ignore that he is trying to convince you of a certain viewpoint. Specifically, urbanization is good, cars are bad (and unfun to drive), bikes are great.

Rewatch the videos, you'll note you can only enjoy many of the changes if you're an advid year round cyclist who lives in a flatish city with nice weather (and who doesn't need anything too far away, most of the time). Buses need roads. Not everyone can cycle, not even with (very, very expensive, even on the low end) ebikes.

[J_Shelby_J]

His channel is literally called not just bikes. He likes bikes, but is not a bike supremicist. He has videos talking about how driving is more pleasant in Amsterdam (true from my experience), he has videos about how awesome Swiss trains are, he has videos about how a walkable city is good for health.

Really his channel should be called “not just cars.” Bikes are just one option he likes as an alternative.

[throw0101c]

> with nice weather

See his video "Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)":

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

See also Oh The Urbanity!'s various videos on the topic:

* "Winter Isn't a Good Argument Against Bike Lanes": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6153xn_seac

* "Bike Lane Haters Are Wrong About Winter": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdtR3T2Pg4s

* "What Biking in the Winter is Really Like": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sokHu9bhpn8

* "2,000 People Told Us Their Biggest Winter Cycling Challenges": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXETjLqHJmA

And most recent (April 2024), "How Winter Cycling Finally Clicked for Us":

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7vickY3yG0

Of course ones doesn't necessarily have to cycle 100% of the time either: do it when you feel most comfortable with it.

[Mawr]

Pretty much all the most commonly used strawman arguments rolled into one post, good job :) You forgot to bring up moving cargo though, so A-.

> advid year round cyclist

So all the women, children, and parents doing utility trips each day on their $50 bikes in the Netherlands are "avid cyclists". Got it.

> flatish city

Bikes have had gears for a looong time. Ebikes are nice too.

> with nice weather

Because the Netherlands is known for its excellent weather? Anyhow, public transport is needed too.

> and who doesn't need anything too far away, most of the time

Yes, we're talking about cities here. Also, trains. Small trains are fun too (trams).

> Buses need roads.

...yes. Thankfully nobody's proposing removing roads.

> Not everyone can cycle

Nobody says they can and not everyone can drive either (:O). In fact, more people can cycle than drive, funny that.

> (very, very expensive, even on the low end) ebikes

Show me a calculation that results in ebikes being in any way expensive compared to a car. In any case, arguing about the expense of biking is absolutely hilarious when you can get a perfectly adequate commuter bike for $50.

Nobody's saying cycling is the miracle solution that works for every person in every situation, everywhere. What they are saying is transportation in dense cities must be efficient and the only way to achieve that is a combination of walkability, cyclability, and public transport. Oh, and you can just use a car if you'd like to, just prepare to pay for the burden you place on others by doing so.

[iknownothow]

I don't need to be convinced of their viewpoint, I live it. I live in another European country, in a city with over million people. I live midway between the middle of the city and the outskirts. Practially everything one needs is available within a 10 minute bike ride. The weather is atrocious sometimes but everyone deals with it by wearing a rain poncho. People who can't bike are on mobility scooters and e-wheelchairs (paid for by health insurance) who share the bike lane. Sometimes I'm too lazy and I take buses, trams, subways and trains which are ubiquitous. And I am not an avid cyclist, wish I was. My bike for me is a tool, a $150 second-hand tool.

Is that the same everywhere in the country or even the city? No. But it's common enough that you'll see parents carrying their kids around in cargo bikes practically anywhere in the country.

P.S. I was generalizing when I said everything's within a 10 minute bike ride to account for all people who live along the same radius as I do. For me personally, everything's available within a 5 minute *walk* - grocery stores, cafes, restaurants, bars, gym, park, playgrounds, kindergartens, schools, train station, doctor, dentist.

[deadbunny]

Ah yes, the Netherlands. Famous for their nice weather.

[huggingmouth]

Comparativly, Netherland's weather is excellent.

[resolutebat]

FWIW, Chris Arnade of "Walking the World" fame has a few things to say about planning in the Netherlands:

There is almost a complete lack of anything that feels commercial mixing with anything that feels residential, beyond especially designated spaces, usually the very center of town.

These suburbs are not conventionally pretty, certainly not in the way downtown Amsterdam, Haarlem, or Leiden are. They are both monotonous and discordant, because the Dutch have perfected an architectural style of varied repetition. They will build twenty to fifty of the exact same weird thing, then next door build a hundred to two hundred of a very different weird thing.

While they can have very clashing outward appearances, they are united in a utilitarian practicality with a focus on providing almost everyone an elementary apartment.

The result of this is that there are two very different urban Netherlands — the older downtowns, with exquisite row homes along canals, medieval churches, cafe-heavy central squares that are frozen into place by historical preservation, and jammed with tourists, and then there are the outer rings of bizarre Lego-like perfunctory two-story apartment complexes, with few if any shops, beyond an Aldi, a hair saloon, a weed store, and maybe a bike-repair stand.

https://walkingtheworld.substack.com/p/walking-the-netherlan... (paywalled, alas)

[iknownothow]

I don't refute that things can be poorly designed in the Netherlands or in Europe in general. It is not a utopia. I'll give it a 6/10, okay on-average, can do better.

The thing is that US cities and suburbs are much worse. Let me quote the title of article

> Walking the Netherlands: From Amsterdam to The Hague

Is walking something you can do in the US except in some rare exceptions? There are suburbs in the US i.e. residential ONLY places where there aren't any side walks. And the closest grocery store may be 10-15 minutes away by car. Doesn't that feel suffocating to have a home but not be allowed to walk out on your own two feet?

[RestlessMind]

> Is walking something you can do in the US except in some rare exceptions?

Depends on where you live

> And the closest grocery store may be 10-15 minutes away by car.

For some people, that's a feature and not a bug. Anecdote - I had a colleague who used to commute from nearby hills because he wanted a house where he can't even see his neighbors.

> Doesn't that feel suffocating to have a home but not be allowed to walk out on your own two feet?

Again, different strokes for different folks. There should be different kind of options catering to different tastes. You want density and walkable cities? Go live in NYC or Boston. You want complete rural wilderness where you don't have to see another fellow human being if you don't want to? There is Alaska or mountain West. You want a big house with a yard in a community where everyone is of the same class and all the daily needs are met (grocery, gas, schools, parks), while being close to a major city to tap into urban amenities (eg. airport)? Go live in a generic suburbia.

[jjav]

> he wanted a house where he can't even see his neighbors

Sure, but that's not a suburb.

[seoulmetro]

If the closest grocery store (essential need) is 10-15 minutes by car, why would anyone walk? That's a long distance to drive for a grocery store and you are no doubt located in quite a low density place to begin with. Infrastructure to walk makes no sense when cars are that much better. In places where your local grocery store is 15 minutes away, congestion (the main drawback of cars) doesn't exist.

[cafard]

> Is walking something you can do in the US except in some rare exceptions?

Depends. Between kindergarten and eighth grade, I caught the school bus for part of sixth grade, otherwise walked or biked. Ninth grade on, I was where the schools were farther away, but I could walk to stores of various sorts.

I don't use a car much these days, though I get to work more by bus than by walking.

[LeChuck]

Eh. The word I would use to describe these suburbs is bland. They're not particularly ugly, but there's nothing interesting about them either.

This, though:

>there are two very different urban Netherlands the older downtowns [...] jammed with tourists, and then there are the outer rings of bizarre Lego-like perfunctory two-story apartment complexes, with few if any shops, beyond an Aldi, a hair saloon, a weed store, and maybe a bike-repair stand."

is taken to such an extreme I would almost call it a lie. Firstly, there are a lot of beautiful inner cities (and villages) not inundated by tourists. Leiden, which he mentions and is one of the most beautiful cities in the Netherlands, sees very little tourists (I've lived there for 10 years). Secondly, I do not recognize his description of the outer rings at all. They may very well exist as described, but I don't know them. These suburbs are bland an boring, sure, but there's plenty of variety in building-types to be found and there usually are pleny of shops within walking/biking distance.

[seoulmetro]

There's nothing to disagree with. I wasn't being subjective. It wasn't an argument. I am just telling you what it is as a channel.

[CalRobert]

I moved to the Netherlands for most of the reasons NJB did and it's hard not to get emotional when you're saying "I moved here so a driver wouldn't kill my daughters while they bike to school."

Because at the core of it, giving my kids freedom and independence and not having a driver kill them shouldn't require moving to a tiny country below sea level.

[RestlessMind]

It's not like Netherlands doesn't have any cars. It ranks fairly high (40 out of 196) in terms of number of motor vehicles per capita

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territor...

[seabass-labrax]

According to data from 2020, the Netherlands has 30 road fatalities per million inhabitants, slightly below the EU average of 42. For comparison, the USA (when all states are considered as a whole) has 117 fatalities per million inhabitants. I'm not sure where to look for per-state statistics.

Anecdotally, even though the Netherlands and my home country of the UK are just next to each other on the ranking of motor vehicle per capita (40th and 37th), during a stay in Limburg I felt that the difference was much more stark. I saw far fewer people driving than I would have done in an equivalent area of Britain. I wonder if that means that the average Dutchman is likely to have a car, but also uses it less frequently than car users in other countries. That might partly account for the low fatality rate.

https://road-safety.transport.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023...

https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-fatality-data-show...

[RestlessMind]

> Anecdotally, even though the Netherlands and my home country of the UK...

Statistics paint a different picture.

"Mobility on Dutch roads has grown continuously since the 1950s and now exceeds 200 billion km travelled per year. With a population of 16.8 million people, this comes down to an average of 32 kilometres (20 mi) per person per day" [1]

Avg UK car mileage per day in 2022 was 18[2]. Given cars are fewer than people, per capita mileage driven will be even lower.

That is also reflect in safety stats. Netherlands has death rates of 3.8/100K people, 4.7/1B vehicle-km. For UK, those numbers are 2.9 and 3.8 respectively [3]. So Netherlands just seems to have a reputation divergent from the actual reality? (I mean, no one talks about how awesome UK is for biking or public transport).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_transport_in_the_Netherla...

[2] https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-car...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

[CalRobert]

Indeed, there's tons of cars here. Too many, and too much free parking. But it's still better than most other places.

I actually don't think the Netherlands is "good" really, just that almost everywhere else is hellishly bad.

[seoulmetro]

You moved somewhere for benefits of that area and lost benefits of the area you left.

That's life.

It doesn't help to mix your life choices with planning choices as one emotional mass. That's why the videos need to be viewed with that in mind.

[lwansbrough]

I recommend About Here. It's Vancouver based but many of the issues they discuss are not unique to Vancouver or Canada.

[dagurp]

I second that. City Nerd is my favourite though.

[andyonthewings]

You said there are better channels, please suggest a few.

[dagurp]

Biased in what way?

But I agree with you in some extent. I prefer his earlier videos because he's become very undiplomatic and I think he's alienating newer watchers.

[seoulmetro]

He seems to have some sort of aggressive blindness to "why" these places aren't like the Netherlands. It helps sell the point and get people outraged. There are great points made but just reaches a level of absurdity by the end of the videos.