[kogir]

I’m probably a little odd but I wipe my devices before international travel. All my travel documents are printed. If they want to steal a device, I’ll just replace it.

When I arrive safely I restore from backup and nothing is lost except an hour or so.

[atrettel]

This is not nearly as odd as it may seem to some people. Many federal agencies and DOE national laboratories use a similar procedure to this by issuing you separate temporary devices while on international travel. That basically requires you to only bring the files that you need if you bring any of them at all.

[illiac786]

How do you deal with banking apps, the type where you confirm a credit card transaction? They cannot be restored from backup, need to be setup fresh on every new phone…

[pubg]

How do you hail an Uber or Lyft upon arrival?

Endpoint navigation is not optional for me. I suppose you could pre-login to only those apps, but still, there is nothing that interesting on my phone that I want to spend the energy to wipe, restore, and re-login to a hundred apps.

[chmod775]

How is that a big deal? Half the time you'd have to install the local equivalent of those ride hailing services anyways - that is if regular local cabs aren't the preferred way to get around.

I use like 2-3 apps for getting around, depending on country. I don't know what you're doing with hundreds.

[IncreasePosts]

You just need to remember one password for your password manager account, and then you don't need to remember any others.

[mr_toad]

Buy a cheap phone at the airport? Or just phone a cab? It’s been a while but back in the day we used to travel without any phone at all.

There’s nothing interesting on my phone either - except keychain, which would give someone access to nearly all my online accounts.

[zoklet-enjoyer]

What I've done in the past is just buy a new phone at the airport. Just make a new account or remember your login

[bmitc]

How do you handle authenticator apps, which do not backup to the cloud, and other two-factor authentication related things?

[Larrikin]

1password works just fine with OTP across all my devices.

Using an authentication method tied directly to and dependent on my phone seems extremely risky and short sighted. A phone can be lost, fall out your pocket into a toilet, etc and those are just accidents. They also basically have a max life time of five years. What happens when you buy a new phone?

[bmitc]

Well yea, but many big players do that: Google Authenticator, Microsoft Authenticator, Duo, Okta, etc.

You use 1Password as your authenticator as well? Doesn't that make it not multi-factor if it contains both your password and authentication?

[pseudalopex]

The 1Password database is something you have. You unlock 1Password with something you know or something you are.

[bmitc]

Does that answer the question? If you have a password and key for 1Password, and keep both your passwords and authentications for accounts behind that password and key, doesn't that defeat multi-factor authentication? Because if the person has access to your account password within 1Password, then they also have access to your account authentication within 1Password.

[pseudalopex]

Factor means something you have, something you know, or something you are. 2 are needed to access 1Password.

Storing everything in 1 app makes the app a single point of failure. Storing everything on 1 device makes the device a single point of failure. Single point of failure and single factor authentication are different.

[LoganDark]

KeePassXC is a TOTP authenticator and it saves to a file. You can put the file anywhere you like. You can, given the correct master password, open the file again on any device and generate TOTP codes.

[bramhaag]

Not OP, but I use Aegis [1] for 2FA which can create encrypted backups. They're synced automatically to my NextCloud instance with the NextCloud app.

[1] https://github.com/beemdevelopment/Aegis

[haunter]

2fas backup to iCloud

https://2fas.com/

[ricktdotorg]

i like this. i've wanted to do this. but what might be the "right answer" to an inquisitive border force who ask why you have device(s) that are factory fresh?

[tzs]

If you are being asked by the border force of the country you are entering tell them you don't trust the border force of the country you came from.

If you being asked by the border force of the country you are leaving tell them you don't trust the border force of the country you are going to.

[kogir]

I’ve never actually been detained or questioned (but know people who have).

If I were I’d tell them the truth that I feel more vulnerable during the chaos of travel and don’t want any risk that a lost or stolen device could leak anything personal.

Would this satisfy them? No idea. Getting stopped at the border is legitimately a single small concern of many more likely scenarios.

[AI_beffr]

for you or anyone reading this, let me enlighten you. when you are dealing with border police there are a few things that you will come to understand. in practice, these border police answer to absolutely no one. there is no oversight and there are no consequences for them treating you poorly -- in practice. for future commenters please read the following words: "IN PRACTICE." the idea that you would tell them that you feel vulnerable about such and such and they would be understanding about it literally makes me laugh. they couldnt care less about the way you feel or whether or not you are at risk for leaks, theft, humiliation or any other bad outcome. you are less than human to them. this is what its like when there is almost literally zero accountability. if they pull you aside, they have already decided that you are guilty. sometimes they might search you and let you go but they also will just decide that they dont like the look of you and that you arent going to get in. once they pull you aside they can search you, interrogate you, hold you, whatever they want. the idea of there being some human element to this interaction is completely laughable.

pretty much every country runs one of these stockyard style mini police states on their borders now. and everyone puts up with it because of "terrorists." meanwhile, literally millions of undocumented people have streamed over the southern border of the US in recent years and how many terror attacks has that resulted in? well ill be damned, zero! so it turns out when the border police tear up your stuff, treat you like human shit and cost you thousands of dollars in hotel and other reservations because they decided they just didnt like the look of you -- it was literally all for nothing! besides the sadistic pleasure that the border police take in hurting people of course. isnt life just so funny like that? hee hee!

most people dont know because the vast majority of people are never pulled aside. but if 80% of people had the experience of being pulled aside, the same one that people have now, even if they all made it through to their destination... the border police would essentially be abolished back to their pre-9/11 status. its gotten completely out of control.

canada is the worst offender when it comes to this. one time they pulled me aside and one by one i literally explained or swatted down every single one of the officers objections. they werent used to someone who was already familiar with how things work. she tries to pull out a paper and pen and ask me all of my destinations to prove that i couldn't afford the trip. and half way through my meticulous and articulate explanation of my plans and stops it became very obvious that i could afford the trip and the clip board kind of melted away off to the side and she chose something else to nit pick me on. ive had canadian border police literally bark at me, sneering, eyebrows slanted at 45 degrees like i was looking at a cartoon character. they really treat you like you arent even human.

edit: if you give a phone call to the canadian border police, i forget the acronym, the first thing you hear is an automated message that swearing and verbal abuse will not be tolerated. IE they have tons of people who make angry phone calls to them after being put through their sadistic border process. how can they not realize that if they dont want people to be mad, they should treat people like human beings. thats the thing, they way they treat you is completely unnecessary. its not like being rude will foil the terrorist.

[spuz]

The point of saying "I feel more vulnerable during the chaos of travel and don’t want any risk that a lost or stolen device could leak anything personal" is not to generate empathy in the border agent, it's to provide a plausible cover story that will cause minimal fuss. Whether or not they empathise with you is irrelevant.

[heavyset_go]

The point is that they don't care about your cover story, they've already made up their mind about you.

[yreg]

Which is obviously not true, since most people who get pulled aside are let in after a few questions anyway.

[southernplaces7]

I truly don't see why you're being downvoted. Much of this is often true and some of it is sometimes true, but none of it is absolutely unbelievable. Speaking specifically of the Canadian border police, from personal experience with being "taken aside", I can vouch for an absolutely arrogant, condescending, shitty attitude of treating you as if you were a suspicious piece of scum for no good reason or justification outside the random bullshit they make up in the spur of the moment when they can find nothing concrete.

[lazyasciiart]

Then what’s the actual reason you wipe your phone?

[ricktdotorg]

this is a good question.

1) i don't really have anything to hide / i'm not doing crimes

however i also:

2) don't want to give my unlocked phone to a border force so they can download my entire life

but if i am compelled to unlock a blank phone to a border force:

3) they will suspect me of doing crimes

[lolinder]

It's not a difficult answer—I bring a burner phone with me when traveling internationally because I don't want to run any risk of a thief getting the keys to the kingdom. Sure, I could remote wipe if that happened, but it feels a lot safer to just not have a phone with real data on it at all.

You're not the first person they've detained who didn't want to bring their real phone with them for totally innocent reasons.

[adolph]

My workplace does this for phones and laptops when people travel overseas. I thought it was pretty standard stuff nowadays.

[yreg]

How do you make sure they don't get their hands on the actual phone? Do you hide it?

[riffic]

"give me the man, and I will find the crime"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Give_me_the_man_and_I_will_giv...

[lazyasciiart]

I’m asking a person who said that they consider the border guards a tiny risk compared to all the real ones that motivate him to wipe his phone.

[xenospn]

they don’t know your device is factory fresh unless you give them the code.

[ricktdotorg]

this has not happened to me yet, but as a non-US citizen with a green card, if USBP told me "give us the code or you're not admitted" the next time i try to enter US, i'm gonna give them the code

[ukd1]

IANAL, but as a green card holder my lawyer told me they cannot deny you entry without an order from an immigration judge (likely if travel was not brief - more than 180 days, or they engaged in illegal activity after leaving the United States as defined in 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(13)) - you only have to answer questions about your name and status, nothing more - though, obviously it will likely cause delays.

Still, give them the code if you want.

[retrac]

It's similar in Canada; permanent residents and citizens have the legal right to reentry and it can't be denied. But that right applies to you, not anything you are carrying. Play that game and you'll probably lose the device to border security.

[bmitc]

Damn. I was fairly certain that U.S. citizens are not subject to such warrantless searches and confiscations, but yet: https://informationsecurity.princeton.edu/sites/g/files/toru...

It's pretty unbelievable that you have reduced constitutional rights as a citizen re-entering the country.

[csomar]

Losing the device in such circumstances is definitively the best outcome. There is a shit ton of data that these devices have and the law is so complex that you probably committed a crime somewhere without you realizing it.

[User23]

They may not be able to deny entry, but they can hold you indefinitely with no limit even if you’re a citizen.

[xenospn]

Can they deny your request for an attorney?

[lazyasciiart]

Good choice. The only circumstances where it’s not a big risk to withhold your PIN is when you are a citizen entering your home country. Even then they can turn it into a pretty nasty time for you (as seen by the guy in the article, where they threaten to just keep his stuff).

[dfadsadsf]

Depends how much you want to visit the country in question. I will be bummed if I am blocked from visiting EU (I am US citizen) but any other country is kinda irrelevant. If Japan put me on no travel list, I would not care one bit.

There is inconvenience of being deported but frankly risk of giving access to all clouds account to random official is just too high.

There is also risk of them putting you in jail but I am not sure if unblocking phone really mitigate it.

[lazyasciiart]

All the deportations I’ve heard of where the person arrived by air, they were jailed until they could be put on a flight back. They only say “you can’t come in, now go away” if you’re crossing a border by land - and plenty of countries are going to refuse to let you walk away even then.

[shermozle]

"It's my company's policy for international travel"

[morkalork]

"I don't want to lose everything if I get pickpocketed"

[kazinator]

"So that I have the maximum amount of space available for downloading tons of beheading videos over the hotel Wi-Fi when I get to my room in New York."

More seriously, I would say that the wiped phone has a minimal amount of data in it, which has the advantage that if it is has to be searched, the search time will be minimized.

[shiggaz]

How do you save and restore the backup?

[j7ake]

iPhone does this with iCloud.

[rohansingh]

How do you login to iCloud without any second factor available?

[mr_toad]

Set up a recovery code (in advance).

https://support.apple.com/en-us/109345

[qingcharles]

And test before you leave!

[jackson1442]

could use a hardware key

[trueismywork]

They can technically ask for your included access as well.

[datahack]

A good solution while it remains legal and backups remain unreachable authorities.

Are they unreachable? How sure are you? Aren’t you just raising suspicion and acting like a criminal by walking around with wiped devices at International borders? Seems suspicious.

[lolinder]

How is it suspicious? Buying a burner phone is one of the most common pieces of advice you'll see for traveling internationally [0]. This wiping strategy is just one small step from that, especially if OP doesn't have a current-year flagship smartphone.

For most people border patrol is not the biggest threat they face when traveling internationally, and OP's steps are very reasonable ones to take against all manner of non-state-sanctioned thefts.

[0] https://global.psu.edu/article/travel-safety-tips-know-you-g...

[JumpCrisscross]

> Buying a burner phone is one of the most common pieces of advice you'll see for traveling internationally

Purchasing a burner phone, as the article describes, and carrying a wiped personal device are generally seen quite differently.

[lolinder]

> generally seen quite differently.

Generally seen by whom? Do you have a citation for this claim?

I have a very hard time imagining how one would go about telling the difference unless it's a current year flagship smartphone.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Generally seen by whom? Do you have a citation for this claim?

By border security. Citation is having worked with ITAR materials in the past, and thus having been required by law to carry clean devices. I had a letter saying my blank phone and laptop were normal. (Only had to use it once, because I was only asked to unlock once.)

> hard time imagining how one would go about telling the difference unless it's a current year flagship smartphone

Any expensive device that doesn't appear to have been purchased for that trip that has zero communications, contacts or other items border security might be curious about will raise eyebrows.

Side note: I still recommend wiping devices and restoring on the other side. But that's quite different from this being best practice. Buying a burner phone is, though that's less and less feasible as we integrate smartphones into our lives.

[datahack]

I thought it was obvious that this is what I was referring to. It’s interesting that people don’t see how traveling with wiped devices sends red flags.

I wipe and restore.

But I have been questioned twice about whether I plan to sell the devices (they didn’t believe me in either case) and one rather unkind border professional I am pretty sure took me in for further questioning because of the blank phone.

[analognoise]

People get stuff jacked at airports and traveling all the time; seems reasonable to me?