[bhb916]

Someone losing a benefit on short notice does not constitute an argument for tax-payer subsidization of that benefit. There are other options for these people, like individual plans that aren't provided by their employer. If such plans aren't available to these people in the state they live in it's most likely due to the regulatory environment of that state. In the states I'm familiar with (CA, WA, AZ) individual health insurance plans are cheap and readily available. (People with serious, chronic pre-existing conditions are another matter entirely)

The people who will be adversely affected by this layoff in this domain will be those who get catastrophically ill, requiring huge hospital bills, who aren't otherwise individually covered and who don't find employment before they get sick. I expect that number to be really, really low. Insuring this entire population against that event seems silly.

Ultimately, relying on your employer for these things is a ticking time bomb.

[jen_h]

People who have serious, chronic pre-existing conditions (or less serious, say, an impending birth...or acne, or asthma, or are a little overweight, or are merely a middle-aged female--insurance companies can and will deny you for any of these things) are the most important matter...and good luck getting stopgap insurance or retroactively-dated insurance. In a lot of states, there's a single insurance provider who does the 'at-risk' stuff and has to cover you (for usurious prices), but you've first got to be denied coverage by a non-State insurance plan before you can go for the state's high-risk stuff (typically and hilariously, it's often the same company - they deny you the cheap 200/month insurance knowing you'll then be forced to fall back on the 1k/month policy from the state). This all takes time...if you're in the middle of, say, cancer treatments or something, damn, this is a nightmare you don't want to have to deal with. Especially on top of losing your income.

There are a lot of things I can sympathize with when a business goes under, but defaulting on your employees' health insurance with a 2-day notice in the US in our current climate (and not really even a real notice, from what I read, someone's doctor told them about it before the company did!) is pretty crappy.

[jethroalias97]

  (People with serious, chronic pre-existing conditions are another matter entirely)

They may be another matter, but does that mean they don't matter?

  I expect that number to be really, really low. 
  Insuring this entire population against that event seems silly.

That is sort of the definition of insurance: Trading a small regular payment in exchange for being protected against very unlikely events. The argument, "it's ok if some people fall through the cracks because it is so unlikely," in the case of insurance doesn't make a lot sense.

[jaems33]

"They may be another matter, but does that mean they don't matter?"

I was actually in that sort of position. Do I spend 80k+ on medicine or just let it be because that's a ridiculous amount that my insurance wouldn't cover because of my pre-existing condition (that really only sidelines me now and then)? If I was still working at a corporation, I wouldn't have had an issue. Alas, bootstrapping and freelancing are different ball-games altogether.

Thankfully, I had the choice of moving back to Canada. In exchange for tax-payers taking the burden of my medical costs for a month or two, I recovered as a productive member of society, i.e. paying taxes, contribute to the economy, and started a business here of my own. As much as I loved living in the U.S., I feel a responsibility to return something positive back to Canada for giving a shit about me instead of trying to gouge me with fees.

[asdkl234890]

Someone losing a benefit on short notice does not constitute an argument for tax-payer subsidization of that benefit.

You know there is a whole continent where most people think of healthcare as a right, not a benefit.

And the Hippocratic Oath doesn't mention anything like "only if they have money". And people in the wast majority of other professions don't usually take oaths.

Healthcare and medicine are treated specially around the world.

Isn't it odd how the US mandates car insurance but not health insurance?

[Drbble]

Which part of the hippocratic oath mentions working for free? It only talks about what behavior is appropriate when rendering service, and the life debt to teachers.

Car insurance is liability insurance. It is completely different. Doctors do carry liability insurance, for example.

[Jare]

Doctors in Europe do not work for free, what kind of, er, uninformed question is that?

Europe does not have free healthcare, it has universal healthcare. It is only free for those who can't pay for it - and believe me, nobody remotely sane envies them for that privilege.

[kika]

And this whole continent is now sinking financially. I believe it's somehow related.

[orbitingpluto]

Meanwhile in Canada...socialized medicine and a better economy.

[kika]

May be they found a perfect balance. I'm from the country where medical help is either free (covered by the government mandatory insurance) or pretty cheap. First thing we (me and my family) did when we came to US - maxed out our dental plans (and put a sizable chunk on top of it) to fix what THEY did.

[Jare]

Are there any data points or studies at all that leads you to that belief? Because I can't find any.

[kika]

Just a little common sense: social security expenditures in European countries account for 28% of GDP. In US it's 7% (!!11).

Thanks for asking, btw, I knew it is bad, but I never even thought it is THAT bad.

http://video.minpress.gr/wwwminpress/aboutgreece/aboutgreece... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)

[DanBC]

Don't forget that US spends more money on healthcare than any other country. (2009 they spent 17.4% GDP, or $7960 per person.)

Despite spending that money you have an unhealthy population (obesity especially a problem); not many doctors (2.4 per 1000 population, fewer than anywhere else except Japan).

Brand name meds are more expensive. The top 30 drugs are more than twice the price in the US than in the UK.

The US does a lousy job of handling long term illness. Preventable mortality among asthma sufferers between 5 and 39 are high, as are lower limb amputations for diabetics. (And diabetes is a considerable problem because of the amount of obesity.)

People often mention excessive spending in US hospitals - lots of high tech equipment, good doctors, many tests, etc. US hospitals are more expensive than many other countries. US doctors get paid more than non-US colleagues (but this is the same for other high-paid workers in different industries.) US hospitals are more expensive even though the stays are shorter. What do you get for this money?

The US does do a good job with some cancers - survival rates for breast cancer are very good. Expensive hospitals don't seem to be working in other areas - people with heart attacks are more than twice as likely to have bypass surgery or angioplasty if they're in the US than in Canada; but there's little evidence that US patients live longer. And some cancers (cervical) have poor outcomes in the US compared to other countries.

Of course, collecting the money that people have to pay also costs money. The US has a high number of admin workers (2.2 per office based doctor). Collecting revenue was estimated to cost 12% of revenue by one doctor group.

The US spends 50% more per person than the next highest spending countries, and more than double of most countries.

[kika]

I'm not saying that US healthcare is great. I'm saying that having a weak economy and spending 30% of GDP is the definite way to disaster. See, the difference is not in the quality, but in the fact that US (inefficiently) spends money that it has (well, borrowed from China, but who cares, China doesn't), while Greece spends money which it hasn't. While having an overall (from the glance of the beholder) better health "climate" (obesity seems to be a nonissue in Southern Europe, red wine and olive oil makes wonders compared to HFCS, chips and beer). I live in Bay Area, buy organic food and all that, but still can't get used to how sweet is everything sweet is in the US.

[stephengillie]

For people without serious pre-existing conditions, health insurance is nothing but an extra cost. The insurance industry depends on the healthy to subsidize the sick.

For healthy people, it's usually cheaper to pay your doctor dentist and other specialists in cash...well, if you are healthy, you don't usually need to see any specialists.

[bhickey]

The conversion from being a healthy person to a sick person is by and large a random phenomenon. You buy insurance because you have a non-linear utility function. Assuming that you'll be a healthy person is like going all in on a p=0.99 bet repeatedly and then acting surprised when you go bust.

[DanBC]

Healthy people get hit by cars too.

[x1]

Don't forget anyone who is pregnant or who might have a pregnant spouse.