[kgf1980]

I went the opposite way (in the UK) and moved from development (mainly C#) to lorry driving (everything from 12T rigids to 44T artics) however in my free time I’m enjoying developing (some RoR, some Golang) more than when I was paid to do it.

Although I’m working more hours (average 50-52 hours a week compared to 38-40), I’m also much better compensated doing HGV driving than I ever was as a developer (although that may reflect more on my skills/level as a developer than anything else)

[datascienced]

This is what rest of the world looks like USA people! Developers are generally paid enough to get by but not crazy salaries. There are exceptions but required you to get through tough interviews. No $200k TC interns out here.

It means picking up a trade or just doing a scrum master job or traffic duties become viable alternatives.

Developers are caught in stagflation. Buying a property in Sydney metro area (within 90m commute) for example would be challenging for most devs.

Prices have tripled and over the frame of 15y while dev salaries or contract rates have not increased.

[piltdownman]

Truck (Lorry) Driving in the UK paying what it does is an economic aberration caused by Brexit and Covid 19 - e.g. 16,000 fewer EU nationals working as HGV drivers in the year ending March 2021.

In the end they had a shortage of nearly 100,000 drivers and had to massively incentivise new entrants to the industry. It's a complete outlier as far as blue collar vs white collar jobs in the UK/EU for the most part.

https://www.bbc.com/news/57810729

That said, overall the EU is paying somewhere around €80-120k for Senior Developers in the HCOL areas and as low as €45k in places like Spain. Overall, individual Contributor salaries outstripping even minor middle management is rare below architect or principal outside of FAANG.

This leads to the situation the commenter above identifies - that fairly vacuous softer-skill based IT Roles like Scrum Master or ART or Release Manager out-earn the median Engineer and are seen as a viable alternative for motivated people.

[gadders]

IR35 rules were a big factor as well, making it less lucrative for people to be self-employed truck drivers. It also paid better to be a delivery driver for Amazon than a truck driver.

[psunavy03]

Those "vacuous" roles exist to ensure that the dev team isn't lighting company money on fire working on the wrong thing, or crippled by inefficient bureaucracy which is also lighting money on fire. Which isn't "vacuous;" there is value in saving the company money.

[brailsafe]

If that's what they do

[psunavy03]

Some strong "junior developer" vibes here . . . nontechnical roles are not automatically fluff, and meetings are not automatically wastes of time.

[brailsafe]

> Some strong "junior developer" vibes here

How defensive. It seems to me like it would take someone with a rather fragile ego and low level of maturity to infer and write such a thing. I didn't call you or anyone else a bootlicker, so maybe save the personal attacks for your next sprint review or Reddit.

> nontechnical roles are not automatically fluff, and meetings are not automatically wastes of time.

If this had been your interpretation of my comment, then you'd have been right, but it's a choice to hold back and interpret a comment maliciously or charitably, and it's a choice to put people down. Non-technical roles do have value, as long as they aren't themselves an embodiment of their crippled inefficient bureaucracy.

[devjab]

While what you say is sort of true, developers are paid better than what you made it sound like for me. The difference is perhaps that professions like truck drivers and a lot of tradeskills are compensated very well because there is a general lack of people in those professions. We also have very strong unions (and legislation because of it) in those areas, so it’s not easy to “displace” (is this the right English word?) truck drivers with cheap foreign labour in a lot of EU countries.

Unlike professions like plumbers, however, IT personal is becoming increasingly easy to come by. And since they never really formed unions, the so called golden days are over for a lot of IT professionals. Maybe excluding hardcore IT operations, networking and at least for now developers.

I wouldn’t be able to earn what I do as a truck driver though. Maybe half with more hours? Interestingly enough I didn’t get there by being rewarded for any work. I got there by switching jobs.

[Tade0]

In outsourcing destination regions like South America, the European eastern block(my location), India and SEA, software engineers still make multiples of the average wage for the region.

It's the geopolitical west that's largely stuck in this situation, but IIRC that has been the case for a while now - when I was considering emigration around eight years ago I noticed that the salary differences are not as huge as I thought and in some places (like Germany) it's just a job like any other.

[Log_out_]

Mysterious why Germany has no software mega Corp, ever so mysterious, it's almost like everything software is linear in Germany meanwhile it's exponential somewhere else. I propose the theory that there is a massive object beneath cal to blame.

[sangnoir]

> Mysterious why Germany has no software mega Corp,

I hear SAP is kind of a big deal.

[Log_out_]

Got to make me a rock made of physics to tie me down to the real.

[oooyay]

> This is what rest of the world looks like USA people!

This statement really depends on whatever part of the USA you're in and what kind of work you do.

> No $200k TC interns out here.

I haven't seen that yet, but I think an SF-based intern (if they were paid for the whole year) would make roughly $120k. There are plenty of people living in the Bay who haven't lived there 10 years who comparatively take home very little.

All that to say, I don't think we need to dice up and turn the developer market against itself. We've all been affected by wage stagnation, the rising cost of metros, and the threat that we must live in them or else. Labor movements are good for all laborers, etc etc etc

[datascienced]

I hope from the comments people seek higher wages for their worth - if everyone did this it would create a force pushing up dev salaries. The tech profits can more than handle this and smaller shops would have to stop doing inefficient stuff. I think cheaper devs allows laziness in thinking. Just throw a bigger team at it, see if it sticks.

[datascienced]

Edit: stagflation is the wrong word I think as that means high unemployment. I wouldn’t say that is the case, just suppressed wages.

[jayphen]

Average senior engineer salary in Sydney is around AUD180k. There is no trade you can pick up that would get close to that.

It’s true that living anywhere near the Sydney metro is unaffordable though, even on a 180k salary.

[Shocka1]

200k TC for an intern is a nice cherry pick in SF or Silicon Valley maybe, but definitely at the extreme top end of the spectrum. Coastal money definitely doesn't speak for the rest of the US - there is a huge amount of space between California and NYC with developers making just enough to get by.

Interviews have always been tough for development positions in the US, whether it's a 60k out of college position in the Midwest or more senior position for a coastal company making the big bucks. It is possible to get lucky and not have to be whiteboarded, but much of the time an applicant is getting grilled.

Although it's obviously objective, I completely agree when comparing to a country like India. However, I'm not so sure it's as huge of a difference as what you are implying when comparing Western countries to non-coastal US developers. I've long since graduated, but if I were still in school and not too far into a CS degree I would probably drop out and be an electrician or plumber, freelancing application development on the side if I still had the energy.

[BoorishBears]

But I was promised free healthcare and more vacation time makes it all even!

(I've always loved that narrative for its optimism. In reality if you have a modicum of self-restraint you can save more money on a US salary than most people are making on a European salary, and tech tends to have excellent healthcare.)

[niemandhier]

It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+ position in the US.

After computing what I would have to pay for: - Piano lessons for the kids - child care - sports clubs - golfing - private tutors - rent / mortgage

I concluded that my quality of life would decrease. Europe is crazy cheep for families. The UK is particular, brexit did not do them any good.

[pedrosorio]

> It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+ position in the US.

100k+ has been close to the floor for entry level for a while now. Did you do the math on how much you'd earn over 10 years?

[yoyohello13]

100k is the floor? Where do you live? I swear most devs on HN have had their brains addled by inflated salaries.

[titanomachy]

It would be unusual for a new college grad at any well-known tech company in Seattle to make less than $150k right now. Large companies like Amazon, Microsoft, and Google dominate the market here. If you were starting a software company in Seattle, $100k would probably be enough to interest only the most inexperienced and unqualified candidates.

New York City and San Francisco Bay Area are similar or higher. I don't have much experience with the rest of the US.

[lannisterstark]

>I swear most devs on HN have had their brains addled by inflated salaries.

Are you sure it's not just a coping mechanism (I can't find the right word, sorry), for those who didn't get those salaries to say this line?

Even in PHX my company offers 95k as starting base for junior devs.

[pedrosorio]

"had their brains addled"... no need to be mean

https://tomazweiss.github.io/blog/so_2023_compensation/

[Manuel_D]

Entry level for my job in the Bay Area was 110K salary an about a other 70K in RSUs. This was 2015. Granted this was probably above average, as it was a medium sized but highly regarded company.

[sethammons]

In socal, the dev interns I was managing a couple years ago were paid $50/hr. That is a bit over $100k/yr

[A4ET8a8uTh0]

Eh, I would have agreed maybe a decade ago, but the past years have seriously eroded USD buying power[1]. For example, for that 100k in 2014 to be equivalent in 2024, you would need 133k or that your adjusted for inflation dollars are 76K ( and that is BLS ).

100k is the floor, because 100k used to actually mean real money. I no longer think it is. I earn more than that and I believe we are struggling. I don't know how other people manage.

[1]https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100%2C000.00&y...

[Propelloni]

This sounds like starting up in the USA becomes less viable. And this begs the question why VC is still focused on the USA. 2-3 million dollars in seed money allow me to scale much faster in Europe (and much much faster elsewhere), if only for the fact that the same money I have to pay for an entry level developer in the USA will get me a very senior developer in Europe. Or two, maybe three, juniors.... what do you think?

[mobiuscog]

Employee 'rights' are often much stronger outside the USA and so whilst you potentially pay more, you can 'downscale' much quicker as well. Look where most of the tech layoffs happen.

[Klonoar]

A cynical take is that VCs still focus on the USA because the environment is far more lax and/or easy to take advantage of.

That’s not an easy scenario for other countries that care to counter.

[vundercind]

Floor’s around $70k-80k for a new grad in my 3rd-tier (but still a couple million population) non-coastal US city. A couple major tech firms you’ve surely heard of are based here, plus some other really big ones you definitely know of if you work in the industries they serve. Not just offices—headquarters.

The benefits will be decent, but nothing special, at a big place and dogshit anywhere smaller, so it’s not made up there. You’ll probably have 10 vacation days, maybe like 14 if they pool vacation and sick leave.

[rustcleaner]

$100 is floor?! Here I am at $36 in Socal! I'm in the wrong line of work...

[BoorishBears]

I'm 30, I can effortlessly save 100k a year after spending money on everything you listed.

If you're happier in the EU that's fine, but the math definitely doesn't check out for people focused on finances: even when you take soft benefits into account

[nasmorn]

I made 245k USD before taxes in the EU last year self employed. Most people I know cannot believe how much money I made. To make that money you don’t just need to be an average leet Code drone but negotiate great contracts on your projects and take on and manage a lot of risk.

What I am saying is: the math definitely doesn’t check out because apparently someone in my position would be doing 3x in the US

[fooker]

Would you mind sharing your math?

I had concluded the opposite if you compound over 5-ish years.

With two tech incomes, you'll make approximately 4-5 million in the US counting equity, versus about 1 mil everywhere else except maybe Zurich. US expenses over 5 years would be about 800k-1mil excluding a home which you are likely going to sell for far more than you pay for.

[saithound]

Let me share my math.

Let's just take one perk I get to enjoy right now: I can afford to live in a high density city block with a long-term average yearly homicide rate below 4 per 100000 inhabitants.

In the U.S. I could replicate this only by purchasing a city block sized campus for myself and then investing in very very good screening of tenants and a private security force.

Based on average salaries of police and municipal infrastructure workers, combined with real estate prices in major U.S. metros, even with a bit of optimization, I couldn't get the cost to go below $2,150,023,240 for the first year (including real estate purchases) and about $1b yearly afterwards. I could maybe go lower by building my own city block somewhere outside a major metro, but I think infrastructure costs would eat that up.

And that's just one perk I got to enjoy: others, such as living within walking distance to my workplace, would be even harder to replicate. Yet others, like the ability to visit a borthel without having to worry about losing my job or going to jail, are nigh impossible.

Sure, there's additional efficiency where one action can help achieve multiple such perks, so let's assume I could replicate the lifestyle I enjoyed for a measlt $1b pa. That's about 8000x the annual income I had when I retired. And US salaries are not even 10x higher than Australian ones, so as far as I can tell, the math is not even close to working out.

(Of course, not everybody cares about these specific perks, and for some the U.S. may be a better fit. They're welcome to emigrate: the ones who don't appear to care enough to vote and keep these policies in place every 3 years, so I doubt anybody's getting the short end of the stick. The point is that it's stupid to compare salary numbers, because a lot of the things people want are trivial conveniences here and still unaffordable for even the richest people in other places, and vice versa.)

[titanomachy]

> achieving a homicide rate below 4/100k would require building a secure compound and hiring live security

This is a little silly. There are many US cities that meet that standard. Seattle's rate is 6/100k which sounds reasonably safe to me. I've never known anyone (and none of my friends knows anyone) who has died by intentional homicide. It's simply not something that we worry about.

> living within walking distance to work is hard to replicate

Why would this be the case? Major cities have both large tech offices and dense housing. My office has many apartments, townhomes, and single-family homes within walking distance. The neighborhood it's located in is quite livable.

> visiting a brothel without losing my job is impossible

This one is probably true. If regular brothel access is a priority, then the US is probably not a good choice. Nevada might be an exception.

[fooker]

>I can afford to live in a high density city block with a long-term average yearly homicide rate below 4 per 100000 inhabitants.

It's great you gave a clear threshold instead of making it vague. Here are some US cities that would satisfy this criteria according to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...) : San Diego, San Jose (yeah I'm surprised too..), NYC (also unexpected!), Portland, Seattle.

[zelphirkalt]

But who is talking about 2 incomes and possibly living even with a partner in one household?

[ta1243]

Based on the OPs figures 1 income with the same expenses would be 1m profit, more than income alone in europe.

I don't believe those figures (and they're meaningless for europeans as you can't simply get a job in the US), but if you take them at face value finanically living in the US for a decade is the sensible approach.

Obviously you'd want to leave before your kids went to school

[readyman]

Your math is based on you and your partner making 400k-500k/yr lol.

[fooker]

Yes, that's what we make right now on average.

If you work in tech for a few years that's kind of average. We are having a new PhD grad join next month with a 400k TC offer.

If you have trouble believing me, check out levels.fyi for (Facebook:E5, Google:L5-6, Nvidia:IC5, Apple ICT5).

[yoyohello13]

Wtf? So if you and your partner get a top 1% tech job in the US you can out earn an average job in Europe. No shit!

[fooker]

The math is more like: top 10% of tech jobs in the US would make ~3-4x of top 10% of Europe. And there are so many tech jobs in the US that this top 10% is much larger in number than anywhere else. There's a reason people emigrate to the US from everywhere despite pretty harsh work environment and social security nets.

For example, a Google IC5/6 in Paris would make between 150k-200k vs ~500-700k in the bay area.

[bobthepanda]

are piano lessons, private tutors, and sports clubs regularly affordable in Europe? those hardly sound like government provided services

[tyfon]

Most of it is government provided here in Norway. My daughtes do (private) piano lessons and theatre and it's organized and paid by the muni. Sports clubs might have a small fee for equipment, but it's also heavily sponsored by the government, the national lottery etc.

For the things not free you can often have them paid for if you are in the low income brackets, and some places just give credit for those types of activity to all children.

The reasoning is that children of low income families shouldn't be excluded.

[fooker]

A lot of US public schools provide this, but the quality can be questionable in/around large metros.

[mokkol]

Here in Spain, I pay €35/month for weekly piano lessons for my daughter. She loves it and we are really happy with her teacher as well. All from the public music school.

[ta1243]

> The UK is particular, brexit did not do them any good.

No shit. That's why working people voted to remain. That's why young people voted to remain. That's why educated people voted to remain.

The majority of people in the UK today that voted, voted to remain. Far more leave voters have died in the last 8 years than remain voters.

[admissionsguy]

Few people realise that the EU countries and the US are no longer in the same wealth category. There is a 50% difference in GDP per capita between Germany and the USA, for example.

It's not a matter of offering benefits in kind instead of money, but rather a fundamental difference in resources available.

[leipert]

The GDP per capita in the US is (85k USD) and in Germany (54k USD) nominal. That’s about 57% higher. At PPP (purchase power parity) 85k US vs 67k Germany, which “only” is a 27% difference.

Denmark rates at 68k / 77k. So much closer. Norway is tricky to compare and Netherlands, Ireland and Switzerland are tax havens.

- Nominal: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(no...

- PPP: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...

[admissionsguy]

The population of Denmark is equal to that of Wisconsin. If we look at Denmark simply because it's among the richest EU countries, it might be more appropriate to compare it with the richest US states. Taking the top 5 state (California), we get $100k vs $68k (nominal), again ca 50%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

[varjag]

These estimates are really approximate and depend on the exchange rate. The lowest rate of NOK/USD on my memory was 5.6 and the highest nearly 12.

Developer salaries in Norway are decent as Europe goes but if you want to make money hand over fist there's no other place like America. Yes even with all the old world perks imaginable.

[mchaver]

Well, I also like that my neighbors and community also have access to no-pay-at-point-of-use healthcare, low cost education options and guaranteed time off. Makes for a relatively relaxed and content population!

If you don't invest in (or put up lots of barriers to) the health and education of the entire community, then you are going to have an unhealthy and uneducated community.

That's not to say we don't have many problems, but in my personal experience it's a lot less than the US in those regards.

[Nextgrid]

> have access to no-pay-at-point-of-use healthcare

This really depends on the country. In the UK you need to go private and pay if you want any kind of timely healthcare.

[lannisterstark]

>I've always loved that narrative for its optimism

Despite all the European love, most of Europe (and rather, most of the world) is pretty poor compared to US.

[datascienced]

Outsiders have the disadvantage of needing a visa but the advantage of a $2k excess (the cost of the return flight) for unlimited chronic condition management. Obviously ER is different as you can’t go home quickly.

Once you return home you might get to keep the job while in the hone country and rake it in.

[cloudripper]

I appreciate stories like this as a reminder that it is never too late to make a change in your life that is right for you. Some folks stick to their comforts and avoid such a big life change out of fear - but sometimes the temporary discomfort can lead to greater fulfillment in the long-run.

Whether your coming from or going to lorry driving - or any other job role, keep telling your story and maybe your path will be an inspiration for someone going through their own jaded, burn-out experience.

[pavel_lishin]

I am consistently enjoying myself more when doing coding side projects, than anything at work. I think that's just ... sort of normal when your profession and your hobby are the same thing - when you don't have any boss except yourself.

[Swizec]

To share an opposite anecdata: After many years of coding side projects and work projects, I no longer get a kick out of side projects. They just don’t scratch the itch anymore. They just pale in interestingness/size/complexity compared to what I get to do at work and if I wanted a big enough side project to scratch the itch, then it would require a team to get done and wouldn’t be a side project.

[kgf1980]

I think for me it’s not having a time pressure - if it takes me 2 weeks spending 2 hours a day to implement something there’s no issue when it’s just projects for myself (I’ve basically written a PWA for tracking my pay, hours, rest time etc which I use every day, and implement a new feature I decide would be useful when it comes up, so kind of the ultimate dog-fooding)

[ipaddr]

I' m the opposite. I put myself under 2 week sprints at home. Imagine someone is working on the same idea and put pressure on myself to get done and release.

At work I hold things an extra day or more so I have something easy to say at the standup. Stands ups at work force this slow pace because it sounds better and is easier for others to follow.

[jmkni]

I've come to realise that actually coding is the part of software development I enjoy the least, and in many staff software engineer positions, that is basically entirely what you are doing

Other people are doing the fun/interesting stuff, project managers, product owners, scrum masters, etc etc are doing all of the fun interesting figuring out/thinking, and then it's just your job to code it.

When you work on side projects, you get to wear all of those other hats and it's way more rewarding

[pavel_lishin]

Wild! Coding, for me, is the fun part - implementing the solution, once I've come up with one.

I've never looked at a product owner or a scrum master and thought to myself, "man, those guys get to have all the fun." I've more often thought, "wow, they have to answer to three people, two of whom are assholes, who have four opinions on how things should be done between them."

[turdprincess]

Actually coding is the domain of mid level and senior engineers. Staff engineers architect, design technical strategy, collaborate across teams. A proper staff engineer might only see code during review or a proof of concept.

[cudgy]

Opposite for me. Much rather code an abomination than hash out the abomination in meetings all day with scrum “masters”, product “owners”, and software “engineers”.

[doctor_eval]

Not really related to your points but I feel that separating design and implementation is a mistake; the people designing and implementing should be, if not the same people, then certainly in the same room, and in constant contact.

So it could be that, if you’re in a world where you aren’t getting to do any of the fun figuring-out stuff, perhaps that’s a problem with the workplace structure rather than with programming generally.

I enjoy a bit of everything, and am apparently lucky to have been able to do it for a long time.

[treflop]

For me, I enjoy programming but just as a tool. I enjoy it like I do my table saw.

But I use my table saw because I want to build certain stuff. Maybe a cabinet or something. You would never catch me using my table saw or programming “just for fun.”

And if I’m not enjoying what I’m building, it’s not like the tool will somehow make it enjoyable.

[pipes]

I've heard with lorry driving there are issues with vibrations causing physical harm eventually? Maybe that is nonsense?

If you don't mind me asking how much were you earning as a developer and how much do you earn driving lorries?

[jdietrich]

Modern trucks (at least European-style cab-over trucks) have extremely soft ride quality. The truck itself has airbag suspension, plus an additional suspension system built into the seat. You do get jostled about a bit, but the movement is very slow and floaty. I'm not aware of any reports of vibration-related harm.

[kgf1980]

I’ve not had any issues with vibrations but I’ve not been driving perhaps long enough?

That said, the newer generation of trucks are so smooth I don’t think that’s as much of an issue as it may have been in previous generations.

Wage wise, working as a developer in the UK (working for small consultancies, not startups etc) my wage topped out at around 38k - last year driving I earnt 46k and this year with promotion (from rigid to articulated vehicles) and annual payrise, plus assuming I work a similar amount of hours I’m estimating 52-55k (all before tax)

[throwaway5959]

I’ll never understand why developers there make less than the US. It’s not like they aren’t providing similar scale/leverage to a business.

[mschuster91]

Because we don't need to set away money for medical care, retirement, the education of our kids and a host of other expenses, the government takes care of that, and our housing costs are far lower than in the US.

Oh and we have public transport that actually works and walkable cities, so at least in urban areas where you find the techies, we don't need a big-ass gas guzzling SUV to get to work or to go and grab some basic groceries. We go to work on the subway/streetcar, and we walk by foot or use a bike to go and shop groceries.

Americans always boast about how much they earn compared to us (Western) Europeans, but IME when you make them break down their monthly budget, it usually turns out that after deducting fixed costs, we are roughly the same in purchasing power, and we're happier on top of that as we don't have to fear a random hospital visit might leave us with a 10k$ bill.

[returningfory2]

I feel this comment's characterizations of both the US and Europe are both basically wrong (or at least, they would require significant qualifications to be reasonable).

I grew up in a suburb of a relatively dense Western European city with ~250k people. The city has buses, but everyone I know gets to work by car. Horrible traffic - 15 mile highway commutes take 45 minutes in the morning. When I was growing up I went to school by car. Nowadays when my father needs groceries he drives for 5 minutes (rather than walk for 15).

Since moving to the US I haven't driven at all - though I live in New York, so it's obviously a special case. For healthcare, "a random hospital visit might leave us with a 10k$ bill" doesn't exist for tech workers - as anyone who's actually worked in tech in the US would know. It's true that the US healthcare has severe access problems for a large portion of the population. But those problems are non-existent for tech workers with employer insurance and bounded out-of-pocket costs.

[pipes]

House prices in the UK are awful. The health system is dire. The education system (in Scotland at least) is awful too (I know several teachers here who will tell you the same, and the international ratings speak for themselves. Tax is high, salaries for tech are way lower than US too. State pensions are chump change.

[badpun]

By some estimates, the US is home to 50% of world's globally reaching corporations. Software written at those companies has giant business implications (thanks to those companies' scale), and thus the devs can be better compensated for their work.

[369548684892826]

If this was the reason then UK developers working for US companies would be paid better

[kshacker]

I hear it is much harder to fire in Europe. One of my colleagues (based is US) is trying to fire an obvious underperformer; and I hear only tidbits; but it is quite difficult. Imagine your risk of being fired decreased 90%, would you be willing to take a slightly smaller salary? Of course when you (the employee) do not trust the company / government, you are also willing to be more mercenary and jump at smallest opportunities, so companies in US probably have to pay a bit more to keep the talent.

[imtringued]

Why would anyone give a shit about it being harder to get fired when it comes to salary? In what kind of distorted world do you live in? I will never understand how you guys come up with these stories. Like, why exactly do you need to fire the guy through the hardest way possible, when you could just fire them the normal way? Like, you're complaining that your own culture is holding you back, because you can't live out your power trip fantasy by telling the guy to put his stuff in a box while a security guard is forcing him out of the building in the most obnoxious way. That type of firing in Germany is reserved for people who have committed crimes on the job.

[maccard]

It varies country by country. The UK is basically at-will for the first two years, and it becomes more difficult after that.

[throwaway5959]

No I wouldn’t because I’m good at what I do (at least reasonably so) and I have an emergency fund. There is no safety net in the US for those between 18-65 for the most part.

[pcthrowaway]

Worse than the physical harm caused from working at a desk?

I've never driven a Lorry, but I did drive for a living, and also drive long distances regularly.

But I find my car seat much more comfortable than my desk chair, and my posture much better in the car than one I can maintain while sitting at a desk and typing.

Of course, if you're doing very long drives you may not get as many opportunities to stand up and stretch your legs, but I'd imagine lorry drivers would have this opportunity once every hour or so.

[jspash]

I've just returned from a 10 day trip across Europe. 5 days to destination. 5 days there. 5 days back. I've been back for 2 weeks now and I think I've only just "recovered" from the drive. The cognitive load of the German autobahn. Trying to understand the road markings in different countries. Rain one day. Snow the next. Glaring sunshine the next.

Now, sitting in my home office in a comfy chair with no vibrations, no continuous noise and no apparent imminent potential for death is most definitely my preferred way to spend 8 hours a day.

Next year is going to be a stay-cation!

[rsynnott]

I mean... have you considered a _train_? :)

[vl]

If so, why not to get different chair (perhaps used car chair) and set it up the same way as it setup in the car?

[pcthrowaway]

The way I sit while driving is very different from typing

Typing I'm not able to recline and comfortably type. It's possibly a different chair, desk, keyboard, and monitor setup could help with this but I'm self-employed right now and not able to shell that out for what would amount to experiments which I don't expect to be particularly fruitful.

I have worked in a number of offices and with a variety of setups when employers were footing the bill, and have yet to find one that was significantly more comfortable than my current setup.

When driving I'm in much more of a relaxed reclining position and just steering. Long distances I can add cruise control to the mix. Making minor adjustments to the steering wheel is completely different from the wrist/fingertip stress of typing, and good posture when working at a desk requires being more upright, which in my experience ends up putting more stress on my back and neck also.

[klondike_klive]

Interesting! Do you enjoy the lorry driving? I've thought about it but one of my concerns is having to manoeuvre around tiny village high streets (lived in a village where houses were regularly hit!) Is there much of that? Are you under a lot of pressure to deliver in super tight time frames? And how long did it take you to get your HGV licence? Cheers.

[kgf1980]

It takes surprisingly little time to get used to the size - that said I’m more confident I the rigid vehicles than the artics in terms of tighter manoeuvring. Most of my work is trunking however so distribution centre to distribution centre, generally at most 5miles from a motorway, for customer deliveries I do have to take some smaller country roads, which are nerve-racking at first but now I’ll take much more confidently.

I enjoy being left alone with podcasts for the first 4-6hours of my shift and music for the rest, I tend to talk to the office 3 times a shift - once when I get my keys, once to find out what (if anything) is getting loaded for a second run and finally to hand my keys in - all in all 10mins interaction with “management” over a 10hr shift suits me fine.

Time wise, taking my Thursday shift - I’m booked at Heathrow airport to deliver at 7pm, if I’m 30-45mins late there’s no issues, but I generally leave to get there at 1840 so even if roads are bad I’m still “on-time” - after that I have a collection (anytime after 1900) which has to be at the customer (2hrs drive) by 0200 and I’m generally there by 2200 - I am lucky in the company I work for leave plenty of time for everything including breaks, I know other places run you around and try to get 10hrs work done in 8.

In terms of time for license, I had 4 days training for my rigid (anything over 7.5T with a trailer upto 750kg) with test on the last day which I passed first time, I then drove them for 6 months for my current employer and then again had 4 days training and test on the 5th for artics (anything over 7.5T with a trailer over 750kg) which I passed first time (thanks in part to driving rigids for 6months and being generally confident with the size etc of the vehicle)

[klondike_klive]

Thanks for such a detailed response:)

[madaxe_again]

>> although that may reflect more on my skills/level as a developer than anything else

Nah, that reflects on the U.K. - developers are generally miserably underpaid, and there’s a massive shortage of freight drivers since Brexit for no apparent reason whatsoever.

[dukeyukey]

Worth pointing out that among non-US countries, the UK has among the highest developer pay. This isn't the UK under-paying, it's the US being a massive outlier.

[User23]

Truck drivers in the USA can easily make well into the six figures as owner operators. It’s not gonna compete with FAANG (except maybe on oilfields?), but it’s a very good living.

And of course if you’re good at running yourself as a business you have the skills to run other drivers too if you choose to invest in a fleet.

Heck, for a while Amazon was paying people to quit and start trucking.

[bmoxb]

> there’s a massive shortage of freight drivers since Brexit for no apparent reason whatsoever.

The main reason is that most drivers were Eastern European and since freedom of movement ended it has become significantly harder for them to come and work as freely as they could before. Covid is also a factor afaik.

Though I otherwise agree with you that developers (or rather white collar careers in general with the exception of certain finance roles) are not particularly well paid in many instances in the UK.

[IntelMiner]

I believe the users comment was deeply sarcastic and they are in underlying agreement with your assertion

[bmoxb]

I think you're right - I'm embarassed to have not picked up on that.

[jokethrowaway]

OP salary at 38k is pretty low.

From my experience that's in line with people doing "body rentals" for agencies under threat of being deported or because they couldn't find another job.

I think he could have doubled that with a bit of work on resume / negotiation skills.

Sure, still lower than US but life in the UK is way cheaper, so it works out unless your earning potential is mid-high 3 digits.

[Nextgrid]

I'm not sure it's specific to body shops. Frankly some higher-end "body shops" (aka agencies) do actually pay quite well.

This salary sadly seems normal for a non-tech business.

> life in the UK is way cheaper

Nowadays I'm not sure, especially if you actually need any of the services the government is supposed to provide but is no longer able to (healthcare, etc). Private healthcare expenses quickly adds up.

[kgf1980]

Surpringly the shortage of drivers is not actually a thing anymore (during Covid perhaps) but the large number of people who got their HGV license when the government changed the rules during Covid has actually caused pay rates to drastically fall due to their being more drivers looking for work than work available.

[rsynnott]

I think that's maybe not _that_ surprising, because freight in _general_ in the UK is in decline. The UK Dept of Transport does not expect freight tonnage to rise to 2019 levels in the foreseeable future. This is partially due to the decline of the land bridge (since Brexit, far more freight to Ireland goes by sea instead of through the UK), but also due to a decline in UK trade in general post-Brexit.

[ta1243]

A decline in the UK in general post-Brexit, although brexit is more of a symptom of a larger decline.

[walthamstow]

Are you away from home much? Do you have a spouse and/or kids?

[kgf1980]

I don’t do nights out or away, so I’m home every night (morning as I work 3pm until I’m done, generally 1-2am, sometimes 5am)

No spouse or kids which probably helps and is why I don’t mind picking up overtime and extra shifts

[pc86]

The best thing I ever did for my love of programming was moving (temporarily) into management. All of a sudden I was spending 10-15 hours weekly in nights and weekends writing more code than I previously had been in 40 working hours. It's amazing what a combination of a) working on your own things that you're more passionate about and b) not spending 20-25 hours coding already will do for your motivation.

[hnthrowaway0328]

I thought about making the same move but quickly dropped the idea when I see this:

The average salary for a truck driver is $24.98 per hour in Montréal, QC.

That's less than a third of my cash compensation.

I do wish getting a non programming laid back day job so that I can program happily in my free time. I kinda gave up the idea to find a programming job that I love to do -- it's just technically too tough to get into one of those low level programming jobs.

[cudgy]

Are you average?

[hnthrowaway0328]

Average on what? I'm sure my truck driving skill is less than the average truck drivers.

[phendrenad2]

Same. It's nice to not have the pressure of delivering on vague and intangible goals. I just move cargo from point A to B. Simple as. Also, my home life has improved greatly because I don't have thoughts of work in the back of my mind. I took a vacation recently and it was the first time in 10+ years I felt like I was really on vacation.

[kgf1980]

For me it’s the fact I hand my keys in at the end of a shift, and I don’t have to think about work until I go in for my next shift - liberating after years of checking work emails from the sofa at night.

[gcbirzan]

Ironically, in an industry that highly regulates working times...

[kgf1980]

Yes, work is covered under both the Working Time Directive (which I’ve opted out of the night work limit and the 48hr working week) and the EU Drivers Hours rules - work are hot on infringements for exceeding working hours but more so on breaches of driving hours or insufficient rest hours.

[levidos]

What's the max someone can earn as a HGV driver in the UK?

[kgf1980]

I’d guesstimate if you were in a high-demand/niche role with a high hourly rate, plus you can max out your hours each week, probably around £65k?

[trey-jones]

Yeah, from my point of view we're going to need more 38 year-olds starting new careers as developers to replace those of us that started at 28 and are ready to move on. I'm about 13 years in, but have been burned out for at least 5 years and I'm finally ready to admit it. Get me out of here.