[mlinhares]

One surprise in these numbers is that Africa seems to be doing better than Latin America when I would have expected them to be close to each other given the economic difficulties, violence and lack of perspective for large swaths of the population.

[quacked]

Often times what is understood by first-worlders as "depression" is a cluster of problems that uniquely affect decently well-off people who have been spiritually and physically subjugated by an spiritually blank industrial bureaucracy.

If you measure stress, hunger, sorrow, fear, scarcity, etc. you'll find higher levels among the global poor, but if you measure "malaise, sadness, lack of purpose, emptiness, yearning for meaning, loneliness" you won't find that the global poor suffer these things as acutely.

People are often surprised when they visit the poorer Caribbean countries, or African countries (not experience immediate war), or South America, and come back gushing about how happy the people there are. Yes; many of the people you'll interact with the third world work fewer hours, with friends and companions from the same culture, with the same spiritual beliefs, doing physical labor outside that has an immediate impact on their direct survival.

By contrast, go to any part of the third world that is experiencing "industrialization" or "globalization"--Lagos, Cairo, Luanda, etc.--and you'll find that "depression" rates begin to increase as people grow up and slot themselves into the global supply chain instead of the lifestyle of their ancestors.

(For the record, I am not advocating that we should shut down the supply chain to cure depression, but I think this understanding of why "happiness" trends down in areas where life is easy and comfortable, but trends up in areas where life is difficult and uncomfortable, is an important step in figuring out a good mental model of the world.)

[mlinhares]

I don't know, there's a lot of that in the countryside in Brazil, that kinda looks like Africa in a lot of places, maybe not as much loneliness as people and families usually stick together but all the other things are there.

But i can see how a simpler and poorer life will remove the worries of emptiness/lack of purpose when all you can focus on is making ends meet and have enough to eat at the next meal.

[ripjaygn]

> with friends and companions from the same culture, with the same spiritual beliefs

What does this have to do with anything? I grew up in a multicultural, multireligious and multilingual part of the third world, and no one ever said or thought that we would be happier if the 'other people' were somehow disappeared. Is this coming from some sections of the modern western society blaming PoC immigrants for their unhappiness?

[quacked]

I'll answer your questions, but first out of curiosity, have you ever had any struggles with depression?

[vbezhenar]

That's correct. Humanity achieved astonishing results in technological and medical advances. But at the same time, humans still struggle with happiness.

[llm_trw]

https://old.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1bmna2e/fertility_...

Or to quote Bertrand Russle:

> There were once upon a time two sausage machines, exquisitely constructed for the purpose of turning pig into the most delicious sausages. One of these retained his zest for pig and produced sausages innumerable; the other said: 'What is pig to me? My own works are far more interesting and wonderful than any pig.' He refused pig and set to work to study his inside. When bereft of its natural food, his inside ceased to function, and the more he studied it, the more empty and foolish it seemed to him to be. All the exquisite apparatus by which the delicious transformation had hitherto been made stood still, and he was at a loss to guess what it was capable of doing. This second sausage machine was like the man who has lost his zest, while the first was like the man who has retained it. The mind is a strange machine which can combine the materials offered to it in the most astonishing ways, but without materials from the external world it is powerless, and unlike the sausage machine it must seize its materials for itself, since events only become experiences through the interest that we take in them: if they do not interest us, we are making nothing of them. The man, therefore, whose attention is turned within finds nothing worthy of his notice, whereas the man whose attention is turned outward can find within, in those rare moments when he examines his soul, the most varied and interesting assortment of ingredients being dissected and recombined into beautiful or instructive patterns.

[FredPret]

Aka “quit navel-gazing and get to work”. I like it

[reocha]

This is essentially just (an extremely elegant) rephrasing of Marx's theory of alienation

[llm_trw]

It isn't.

> To all the talented young men who wander about feeling that there is nothing in the world for them to do, I should say: 'Give up trying to write, and, instead, try not to write. Go out into the world; become a pirate, a king in Borneo, a labourer in Soviet Russia; give yourself an existence in which the satisfaction of elementary physical needs will occupy all your energies.' I do not recommend this course of action to everyone, but only to those who suffer from the disease which Mr. Krutch diagnoses. I believe that, after some years of such an existence, the ex-intellectual will find that in spite of his efforts he can no longer refrain from writing, and when this time comes his writing will not seem to him futile.

[reocha]

How does this not fit into alienation?

[gopher_space]

Both seem like something you’d say if self-reflection hurts your puzzler. Not the first folks to cast inabilities as virtues.

[discordance]

Countries that have systems for detection (i.e. better medical systems) and less stigmatization of depression will have higher detection rates.

[dav43]

I am inclined to believe this as well. Originally from Australia, it’s extremely prevalent to talk about “mental health” see “mental health campaigns” and have “mental health” promotion days.

I wonder if talking about it so much make people question their own leave of well being too often?

I compare this to long stints in HK and Singapore - not once has it been mentioned in the office or even socially.

[nojs]

A simple explanation may be ease of access to someone who can make the diagnosis

[jvm___]

Is depression a true first world problem? Am I ignorant to say that maybe a struggle to survive gives you less time to ruminate and get depressed?

Or maybe the culture of relying on other people in poorer economic situations (within an actual culture of interacting with others), provides some sort of preventive cure for depression.

[SturgeonsLaw]

There's a couple of paragraphs in the link that address this, although given the nature of the claims it's hard to put a number on it:

> While the numbers listed above (and below) are valuable and vital, it is important to keep in mind that the true rates are likely much higher, especially in less developed countries. Depression is much more likely to be diagnosed in highly developed countries, whose more robust health care infrastructures are far better equipped to identify and treat mental illnesses.

> Therefore, less developed countries do not necessarily have less depression—rather, their treatment of mental illnesses often takes a back seat to broader concerns such as hunger, disease, and sanitation. In fact, the World Health Organization estimates that 76–85% of people suffering from mental disorders in low- and middle-income countries lack access to the necessary treatment. Moreover, even in developed nations, many cases of mental illness go undiagnosed and unreported because the patients are either ashamed of their illness or unaware that it's a medically treatable condition.

So I'm wondering what the data displayed on the page is actually showing us. Certainly, the initial impressions that I got is that the first world lifestyle is associated with a kind of malaise, but is this just showing differences in diagnostic rates? Or a combination of the two, if so, how to untangle that and get a useful comparison between countries?

[giantg2]

It seems my past relatives were happier even in worse conditions. I think it was all about perspective. Life might have become physically easier, but it's much more complicated and less socially connected while being more connected with negative news. Many of them went through extreme difficulties (the depression, combat, etc), the rest of their lives seemed much better.

[dhoe]

The error bars on any kind of population data for large parts of Africa should be very large.

[TillE]

Yeah all the "least depressed" countries are either minuscule and/or lacking sophisticated, comprehensive medical systems.

I think if we had perfect data, there'd be a strong correlation between sunlight hours and lower depression rates. It's one of the few real factors for alleviating mild-moderate depression. Stuff like living standards has very little relation to actual clinical depression.

[rufus_foreman]

>> I would have expected them to be close to each other given the economic difficulties, violence and lack of perspective

What's wrong with violence? I never found violence to be depressing. For me it was sort of the opposite as a young man.

[mlinhares]

If you can't work or progress in life due to the risk of violence (any work you do and anything you make will be stolen by those perpetrating violence) why would you even bother doing anything?

[rufus_foreman]

>> the risk of violence

See, you're doing it again. The "risk of violence"? "why would you even bother doing anything"?

Fight Club covers all this in detail. It really is one of the most inspirational movies ever (and book too I guess).

Violence is OK. It can kill you but so can bacon.

[ramijames]

Afghanistan was most surprising to me.