[michael_vo]

As someone who's travelled to about 30 countries in the last 2 years, I used to dismiss until I went to Turkey few months ago. It is the only country I've been to where there are BTC ATMs and signs everywhere. At the Airport there are bitcoin company logos on hangars, and in the terminal. On the streets you see the bitcoin logo everywhere.

It's very useful for Turkey as it has 100% inflation yearly and the ATM fees are 10-20% to withdraw money. Apparently (from other travellers), it's very useful for the Russians to withdraw money in Turkey as well.

[Arainach]

>it's very useful for the Russians to withdraw money in Turkey as well.

"This product makes it easy to illegally bypass international sanctions" is not the compliment you think it is.

[grishka]

Those sanctions that do nothing for their alleged purpose (to make the war economically harder for the Russian government) yet disproportionately affect those people who can do absolutely nothing about them, right.

I say that a very disgruntled Russian who hasn't had a sane, predictable life since 2020.

[anonzzzies]

So it seems to work then? Get the population angry enough at their leaders to cause an uprise is part of the goal I guess.

[grishka]

This is based on the fundamentally wrong assumption that the government listens to their citizens.

[anonzzzies]

Uprises can be and often are violent. The listening is not required after a coup.

[grishka]

And uprisings are usually started by the military. Oops.

[kube-system]

> I say that a very disgruntled Russian who hasn't had a sane, predictable life since 2020.

Seems that it is has made it politically more difficult, if not economically so.

[scrollaway]

What’s your source on the sanctions doing nothing to make the war harder for Russia?

I’m asking because how on earth can you claim that? I’m close to the ecosystem involved and the sanctions work incredibly well. They’re not sufficient and there are bypasses but that doesn’t mean they don’t work.

[cft]

They work incredibly well for drawing nigh the end of dollar as the reserve currency, and nothing else. More and more countries are divesting of it, because it's used as a political weapon.

[scrollaway]

Sanctions aren’t only USD based and you’re not providing any evidence for your claims.

[throw0101c]

> Those sanctions that do nothing for their alleged purpose (to make the war economically harder for the Russian government) yet disproportionately affect those people who can do absolutely nothing about them, right.

Sanctions work by reducing growth and the economy of its target—usually a pariah state—over time by reducing growth year over year, which compounds (negatively) over time to make the target less and less influential.

> I say that a very disgruntled Russian who hasn't had a sane, predictable life since 2020.

And the alternative to economic sanctions would be… ?

[cdchn]

>who can do absolutely nothing about them

There is a _bit_ of hope you'll do something about it.

[grishka]

You seem really naive to think that this government has any feedback mechanisms whatsoever left.

[throw0101c]

> You seem really naive to think that this government has any feedback mechanisms whatsoever left.

The oligarchs could arrange to put something extra in the breakfast one day. Or there could be a chance meeting with a window.

[brokenmachine]

Of course there's feedback mechanisms. You just don't want to use them for whatever reason.

[infamouscow]

What's funny is in the US, when even the slightest hint of that occurred, one side completely freaked out. Just imagine if those folks were armed, or say even 10% of the population were heavily armed and in support of that. It also probably doesn't help that the overwhelming majority of experienced combat veterans the US spent millions per troop training for the last 20 years would be on their side, not yours. That layers on top of their real world experience of bullets wizzing and cracking by, living in shit conditions, and holding their friends in their arms as they die.

You're a feeble Internet nerd whose position is an aberration of history.

I'm sure you'll selectively apply your morals rather than having enough intelligence to understand what you're advocating.

This is pretty reprehensible and you should be embarrassed.

[grishka]

> for whatever reason

Like, uhhh, wanting to stay alive and not go to jail? Is that a good enough reason?

[anjel]

Looking at Russian history for the last 200 years or so, your hoping for a historical first, unless you want to consider 1917

[cdchn]

1917 could be considered comparatively recent if you compare that event to similar ones in other countries.

[trappist]

Do you think that the world is a better place if ordinary Russians can't access their own money?

[janalsncm]

The point of sanctions is as a disincentive against bad behavior at a national level. The bad behavior here is invading a sovereign country. If the sanctions worked it would cause internal pressure and shorten the war.

Of course no one wants hardship for everyday Russians, but we should be able to say the same about everyday Ukrainians, many of whom have had their whole lives upended.

The war is continuing because of only one man on the planet, and since violent options are off the table, functioning sanctions are the next best thing.

[Dalewyn]

>The point of sanctions is as a disincentive against bad behavior at a national level.

There is an argument to be made that sanctions don't work. Maybe they used to in the long distant past, but they don't now.

Russia doesn't give even half a fuck, Iran gives negative fucks, North Korea gives no fucks, and China is turning the sanctions back against us, to name some prominent examples.

I appreciate the west's desire to settle diplomatic problems using something other than war, but sanctions aren't the solution (anymore?).

[janalsncm]

To the extent that they don’t work, a lot of that is because of bitcoin. North Korea steals enough bitcoin to cover half of their military budget.

Given that this thread concerns whether the legitimate use cases of Bitcoin outweigh the illegitimate ones, I think this is an argument strongly against the position.

[aardvarkr]

You claimed this based on vibes without citing any sources. Do you really think North Korea is thriving right now? How about Iran’s booming economy? The mighty Russian bear is so crippled by sanctions that China effectively owns them, with Russia entirely dependent on them to for everything besides oil.

Every day that these sanctions against Iran, North Korea, and Russia are in place those countries fall further and further behind. Every day their economies become less and less competitive

[Dalewyn]

You say that, but Iran keeps on war merchanting, North Korea keeps on lobbing missiles, Russia keeps on warmongering, and China keeps on owning the world.

Sanctions as they are right now don't work, and that is a problem.

[startupsfail]

The same ordinary Russians that voted for the person that was clearly a dictator on the raise? Or the same ones that are cheerfully sending their children to kill innocent people in Ukraine? Or the same ones that were completely apathetic to the political opposition being arrested, poisoned or killed?

I’d say yes. That’s the point of the sanctions. And somebody should be tracing that Russian money on the ledger and getting the ill gotten properties traced and arrested.

[janalsncm]

I don’t think many people would agree that Russia has free and fair elections. Russia declares political opponents to be terrorists, effectively narrowing the Overton Window to be perfectly Putin sized.

Of course Russians don’t deserve economic hardship, but they don’t deserve to live in an autocracy either. And Ukrainians don’t deserve to be invaded. The lesson here is probably that the “great man” theory of history kind of ignores the everyday people whose lives were ruined by leaders who didn’t have to deal with the worst consequences of their decisions.

[startupsfail]

It’s the people that empower and enable. They are given guns, tanks, military aircrafts, missiles. They are manufacturing the weapons.

It doesn’t look like any of these get accidentally launched onto Kremlin. Or turned against conscription. Or used in any kind of resistance.

There are people there that are sacrificing their lives. Only for some reason, they are sacrificing these lives on the wrong side. On the side of supporting the dictatorship.

[nullityrofl]

This is the entire premise of sanctions, yes.

[grishka]

To punish people for someone else's decision?

[scrollaway]

I wish to remind you that many everyday Russians participate in the war in a variety of ways, from diffusing propaganda, to a variety of associations with the Russian military complex, to being on the frontlines themselves.

Those many everyday Russians punish people (Ukrainians mainly, Europeans in general) for someone else’s decision (Putin’s power trip).

I also wish to remind you that hardship in Russia does not compare to hardship in Ukraine right now.

I say this as someone with relatives in both countries today.

[mopsi]

Someone else's decision, and you are just following the orders?

It doesn't work that way. Putin is not working in a factory building tanks and artillery shells. He is not in an office programming which cities ballistic missiles will hit. He is not piloting bombers or manning guns shooting at Ukraine. He is not sitting in tanks ravaging through Ukrainian countriside, he is not in cellars raping and torturing civilians, he has not personally committed any of the tens of thousands documented war crimes in Ukraine. Millions upon millions of "ordinary Russians" choose to do this every day. Without the majority of Russian society actively working to carry out Putin's ideas, or passively sitting on their asses and trying to pretend they have nothing to do with it, Putin would be just a raving madman without any influence on the world like Hitler in his final days.

USSR collapsed when "ordinary Russians" simply stopped following orders. They were told to go there and do this, and they said NO in large enough numbers that the leaders were simply unable to do anything, because eventually even police and military stopped listening them. Russia has not yet reached this breaking point, and millions upon millions remain Putin's willing executioners, and bear the guilt that comes with it.

Every day, Ukrainians put their lives on the line, and hundreds die, in a desperate attempt to stop the curse on the world that Russia has become, while "ordinary Russians" are unwilling to even stage a large protest.

[grishka]

There's an enormous separation between those "ordinary Russians" who are in survival mode and do all the things you said, and those other "ordinary Russians" like me who are actually affected by sanctions and have passports and care about traveling abroad and speak English and are against the war.

The sanctions target the wrong ones.

As for "unwilling to even stage a large protest", there's simply no one left to organize it. Those people who could do it are either in jail, in exile, or dead.

[wizardforhire]

Do you think the world is a better place if ordinary Russians are nuked along with ordinary people all over the world?

Why beat around the bush? The reason we’re playing the sanctions game, or the proxy war game, or any other bullshit games nations are playing is because the alternative is worse.

[nerdwaller]

Just wait until their home banks interrogate them about how they want to spend their local currency they wish to withdraw or banks shut off withdrawals entirely due to systemic issues.

Bitcoin may not be the end all solution, but it's a great current option.

[raincole]

Yes, it's a much bigger compliment than the parent comment suggested. It's the sole point of cryptocurrency -- working around limits set by authorities.

[dj_mc_merlin]

The entire premise is money without a central authority. This is a feature not a bug..

[wddkcs]

"When can't shut off their money!" Would be a great Bitcoin commercial, except there's no one to make it.

[jMyles]

> "This product makes it easy to illegally bypass international sanctions" is not the compliment you think it is.

It feels like this is a wedge across the community here at HN right now.

If the goal of the technology is to draw sovereignty from math and implement it in a way that's useful, then the capacity to trivially bypass legacy bugs (such as illubrication occurring in places where states assert their boundaries) seems like an enormous and meaningful compliment.

Maybe you think those are features and not bugs, but that's a different discussion (one I'm happy to have and about which my heart sings true).

[2muchcoffeeman]

I think it’s a problem if you have to point to a poorly functioning country and go “see? Bitcoin works!” Meanwhile the poor locals need to somehow get enough technology and understand Bitcoin. And in developed countries, no one really wants it or only buy it to speculate, not to actually make transactions.

Bitcoin ATMs used to be on the rise where I live many years ago. And I could make purchases. Now they are all gone.

Seems like the people adopting crypto don’t have many choices.

[Ferret7446]

It doesn't sound like a compliment until one day you become "illegal". I don't think you'd be happy with most laws that have existed throughout history.

[michael_vo]

That was not a compliment, just reporting the way btc is used.

For a regular human in the real world they will make very rational economic decisions in their best interests.

If the ATM fees are taking 20% of my money, of course I'm going to look for alternative systems of payments. If I can't use my Russian Rubles, of course I'm going to use BTC.

[akira2501]

"International sanctions" makes it sound like it has some legitimate worldwide weight that should be automatically respected by all people. Which works right up until you look at the exceptionally large list of things they want to sanction and you recognize that as the sole tool of "diplomacy" it can never work and might even qualify for crimes against humanity.

Which actually is a huge compliment because it means that government permission is no longer required to spend your money how you please.

Otherwise you're implicitly suggesting that Russia is somehow able to weather these sanctions only because bitcoin exists, or that bitcoin should be "reigned" in some way to make it compatible with arbitrary foreign government sanctions.

[dartos]

Depends on who you ask

[kaliqt]

Russian citizens aren't criminals. The sanctions are wrong.

[aforwardslash]

Like it or not, in a democracy, all citizens bear responsability for the actions of their state. I'm not saying people are individually accountable for every little detail, but they are for the collective of their misdeeds.

Either it is a democracy and the majority of the population is on board with it - explicitly or by ineptitude - or it is a dictatorship and they are cumplicit by inaction.

If we were discussing nazi party sympathizers in 1940 you wouldn't be even giving them the benefit of the doubt; the truth is, many people got onboard with what was going on because it wasn't with them directly. They got on with the party because it was what every one was doing at the time.

Turning a blind eye to the atrocities performed by the leaders your motherland elects when you lived there just because you got out is the worst cowardice I can think of.

[blackoil]

So, you are suggesting that if someone believes US has waged illegal war in Iraq, he has moral/legal authority to punish US citizens??

[aforwardslash]

If a US citizen believes the US has waged an illegal war, he is also responsible for it. Thats how democracy works.

Thats why when countries have mandatory drafts, you cant just say "no thanks, I didnt vote for it".

[catlifeonmars]

I think two parties can have opposing opinions on this. That’s the whole reason wars are fought: disagreements over moral or legal authority. Otherwise why resort to violence?

[Ferret7446]

> I'm not saying people are individually accountable for every little detail, but they are for the collective of their misdeeds.

That has been used to justify a lot of atrocities throughout history. Which is to say, if you're using that to justify an action, you'd better take a dozen steps back and take a couple months to think about what you're doing.

[aforwardslash]

> That has been used to justify a lot of atrocities throughout history.

Yes, it has. Because it is basically true. Thing is, there is a huge difference between what separates you from your enemy from the things you may have in common, but totalitarian governments tend to point to the differences (that are few) instead of the points in common (that are many).

So, if your government, your fellow men, mistreat a woman in Africa in some military operation, is that acceptable? Does that make the news? No. If your government, your fellow men, take decisions to invade/bomb/starve a country, is that acceptable for you?

Lets just say it isn't, because if it is, you're just an ahole.

Do you benefit* from the prosperity bestowed upon you by such government - such as using roads, having healthcare or basically being a productive member of the society? Lets assume you do. What is the difference between the government you tolerate for yourself and the government that mistreats a woman in Africa, or that bombs a syrian family, or that kills by -just being absent - thousands in Sudan?

None.

Isn't it the same government? How aren't YOU against of that?

> you'd better take a dozen steps back and take a couple months to think about what you're doing

American? Either that or a bot. Either way if you can't tie your own shoelaces OR you're living for the first time the fear of a 3rd world war, please refrain yourself.

[richrichie]

This absurd. If extended it applies to citizens of all democracies including possibly you. FYI, US waged multiple illegal wars and has been responsible for deaths and injury of millions in the middle east. So has Israel and UK. That does not make them targets.

[aforwardslash]

It definitely applies to me. My government, as a NATO member, supported multiple US-led operations, targeting nations not related with NATO interests (such as eg. Iraq). Was I in agreement? No. Am I responsible for the actions of my government? Obviously. Living in a democracy is not cherry-picking what you want; is understanding that a majority may have a different opinion than you, and may even listen to you; Responsibility is shared in both the good parts and the bad parts.

I understand this may be a shock to a US citizen, as it would be for me if I ever lived in a country where truth, facts and people interests matter little to nothing. And yes, I've also been in the military, so I was also coached in the art of defending the right of people having diverging opinions from my own.

[devbent]

Countries that feel the US has acted wrongly are free to impose sanctions against the US.

That is how these things work.

[richrichie]

Don’t think anyone feels wrongly. They just do business with others. You do know that Europe still buys Russian gas, but routed through China and India, at higher prices, right?

[gosub100]

That same argument could be used to target civilians then. "you're all part of the collective so you all have an equal chance to die".

[aforwardslash]

Who elects the government in a democracy? Civilians. Who is the drive force for any meaningful change in the regime? Civilians. So yes, its not a surprise civilians of a given regime suffer the consequences. In fact, that is the main premise of terrorism - bring consequences of the collective decisions closer to home.

What, did you expect to be morally above any other faction labelled as a "terrorist"? You aren't. I, as a citizen of a NATO country, obviously avoid countries where myself can be confused with the actions of my government. That is common sense.

You may argue "but I didn't agree with X or Y decision" - yes, but did you present yourself to scrutiny? Did you try to change things? Did you do any meaningful action to actually change the political course? Of course not, like most of us (myself included) don't. But don't try to skip on the responsibility - you, your people as a whole are responsible for the actions of your government.

[gosub100]

Your hot take loses all credibility when you say you support indiscriminate killing of civilians, aka terrorism. I'm surprised nobody noticed this sooner.

[monero-xmr]

This has been happening for many years. There is a lot of commerce in Lebanon and Argentina conducted in crypto, usually USDT or USDC (dollar-backed stablecoins).

At this point to argue crypto has no utility with a straight face is just being willfully blind.

[antoniuschan99]

How does that work? It seems to make a lot of sense in Lebanon as they were freezing or only allowing $150 a month withdrawals. Do people really self custody their funds? When they need local currency they just go to the bitcoin atm’s to withdraw? Also fees would be somewhat high so do they use something Monero?

[aforwardslash]

"commerce". There is a reason why its performed in cryptocurrencies

[lazyasciiart]

An interesting story on bitcoin in Turkey that I just read: https://www.wired.com/story/faruk-ozer-turkey-crypto-fraud/