[aforwardslash]

Like it or not, in a democracy, all citizens bear responsability for the actions of their state. I'm not saying people are individually accountable for every little detail, but they are for the collective of their misdeeds.

Either it is a democracy and the majority of the population is on board with it - explicitly or by ineptitude - or it is a dictatorship and they are cumplicit by inaction.

If we were discussing nazi party sympathizers in 1940 you wouldn't be even giving them the benefit of the doubt; the truth is, many people got onboard with what was going on because it wasn't with them directly. They got on with the party because it was what every one was doing at the time.

Turning a blind eye to the atrocities performed by the leaders your motherland elects when you lived there just because you got out is the worst cowardice I can think of.

[blackoil]

So, you are suggesting that if someone believes US has waged illegal war in Iraq, he has moral/legal authority to punish US citizens??

[aforwardslash]

If a US citizen believes the US has waged an illegal war, he is also responsible for it. Thats how democracy works.

Thats why when countries have mandatory drafts, you cant just say "no thanks, I didnt vote for it".

[catlifeonmars]

I think two parties can have opposing opinions on this. That’s the whole reason wars are fought: disagreements over moral or legal authority. Otherwise why resort to violence?

[Ferret7446]

> I'm not saying people are individually accountable for every little detail, but they are for the collective of their misdeeds.

That has been used to justify a lot of atrocities throughout history. Which is to say, if you're using that to justify an action, you'd better take a dozen steps back and take a couple months to think about what you're doing.

[aforwardslash]

> That has been used to justify a lot of atrocities throughout history.

Yes, it has. Because it is basically true. Thing is, there is a huge difference between what separates you from your enemy from the things you may have in common, but totalitarian governments tend to point to the differences (that are few) instead of the points in common (that are many).

So, if your government, your fellow men, mistreat a woman in Africa in some military operation, is that acceptable? Does that make the news? No. If your government, your fellow men, take decisions to invade/bomb/starve a country, is that acceptable for you?

Lets just say it isn't, because if it is, you're just an ahole.

Do you benefit* from the prosperity bestowed upon you by such government - such as using roads, having healthcare or basically being a productive member of the society? Lets assume you do. What is the difference between the government you tolerate for yourself and the government that mistreats a woman in Africa, or that bombs a syrian family, or that kills by -just being absent - thousands in Sudan?

None.

Isn't it the same government? How aren't YOU against of that?

> you'd better take a dozen steps back and take a couple months to think about what you're doing

American? Either that or a bot. Either way if you can't tie your own shoelaces OR you're living for the first time the fear of a 3rd world war, please refrain yourself.

[richrichie]

This absurd. If extended it applies to citizens of all democracies including possibly you. FYI, US waged multiple illegal wars and has been responsible for deaths and injury of millions in the middle east. So has Israel and UK. That does not make them targets.

[aforwardslash]

It definitely applies to me. My government, as a NATO member, supported multiple US-led operations, targeting nations not related with NATO interests (such as eg. Iraq). Was I in agreement? No. Am I responsible for the actions of my government? Obviously. Living in a democracy is not cherry-picking what you want; is understanding that a majority may have a different opinion than you, and may even listen to you; Responsibility is shared in both the good parts and the bad parts.

I understand this may be a shock to a US citizen, as it would be for me if I ever lived in a country where truth, facts and people interests matter little to nothing. And yes, I've also been in the military, so I was also coached in the art of defending the right of people having diverging opinions from my own.

[devbent]

Countries that feel the US has acted wrongly are free to impose sanctions against the US.

That is how these things work.

[richrichie]

Don’t think anyone feels wrongly. They just do business with others. You do know that Europe still buys Russian gas, but routed through China and India, at higher prices, right?

[gosub100]

That same argument could be used to target civilians then. "you're all part of the collective so you all have an equal chance to die".

[aforwardslash]

Who elects the government in a democracy? Civilians. Who is the drive force for any meaningful change in the regime? Civilians. So yes, its not a surprise civilians of a given regime suffer the consequences. In fact, that is the main premise of terrorism - bring consequences of the collective decisions closer to home.

What, did you expect to be morally above any other faction labelled as a "terrorist"? You aren't. I, as a citizen of a NATO country, obviously avoid countries where myself can be confused with the actions of my government. That is common sense.

You may argue "but I didn't agree with X or Y decision" - yes, but did you present yourself to scrutiny? Did you try to change things? Did you do any meaningful action to actually change the political course? Of course not, like most of us (myself included) don't. But don't try to skip on the responsibility - you, your people as a whole are responsible for the actions of your government.

[gosub100]

Your hot take loses all credibility when you say you support indiscriminate killing of civilians, aka terrorism. I'm surprised nobody noticed this sooner.

[aforwardslash]

I did not say that, and I do not support that - at all. What I said is, I *understand* how someone may react towards you specifically because you *represent* a nation that did X that impacted their lives, because of something (scratch what it doesn't apply) you did/your government did/your government supported.

Geez, are you *that* dense? Or just american? Cuz just being american would explain a lot.

And killing of enemy civilians is called "war". I like you keep post-1950's ideas, but the rest of the world hasnt caught on yet.

[gosub100]

Terrorist advocate uses ad hominem. What a surprise