[hariharan_uno]

I completely agree. I have been living here for 8 years, and recently applied for a permanent settlement permit.

My application went into a blackhole for more than 4 months, while my existing permit expired, essentially making me a prisoner here (I can stay and work in Germany but if I travel internationally, I won't be allowed entry back).

Meanwhile, my applications for a temporary travel permit were unanswered for months. There is no way to contact the foreign office (no email, no telephone, no fax). You just send your application and pray.

I strongly advise anyone to stay away from Germany if you have better options. This country is a bureaucratic nightmare in general.

[nicbou]

Mine too! My residence permit expired in February, and my appointment is in July. I expect to have a valid residence title again by end of August.

Mind you, I applied in December. I will not be able to travel out of the country for most of the summer as I wouldn't be allowed to reenter.

They refused multiple times to issue the temporary permit that I'm legally entitled to. I'm having a lawyer ask again, this time with the threat of a lawsuit.

It's such a common problem that I had to write a detailed article about it. People miss weddings and funerals because the immigration office is months late. The number of lawsuits due to inaction is growing exponentially since 2019.

[chironjit]

I'll one up you and say that it's so broken, there are lots of people that basically live on ranges of exceptions.

In my case, I was told I was not eligible for the visa I needed but when I spoke to a migration consultant who knew the process, they managed to get it done. I was pretty shocked as this wink, wink, nod, nod style system is not something I expected from this country.

[fps_doug]

This sounds like all of you are living in Berlin, which is known as "failed state" to the rest of Germany. ;-)

It varies form city to city, I live in one that I'd say is an exception on the positive side: Most clerks in the various offices are actually helpful and even giving you hints. I had to renew my passport in January and got an appointment the next day. I got the appointment online(!) in Germany(!!). Passport could be collected 4 weeks later. Meanwhile an ex-colleague who lives in Berlin had to wrestle with his nearest office to even get an appointment for a passport renewal, then gave up and made an appointment with the office in the neighboring district, where it was still a 4 weeks wait. He told me there are districts where it takes up to 6 months.

I guess if you want pain and suffering, move to Berlin. :o)

[apflkx]

Unfortunately, this is not just a problem limited to Berlin :-( [1][2]

It's been an absolute mess trying to secure my wife's settlement permit ("Niederlassungserlaubnis"). She has a german Master's degree, works in a government-funded research facility, and has been in the system since December 2022. We've now been ghosted for 14 months, only to be told to make an appointment to provide additional documents (which were not on the 'required documents' list they initially handed to us). After checking the appointment booking website to no avail, I came up with a python script that sends a notification to our phones when a new appointment pops up. It took 40 days of scraping until a new free appointment was available, only to be allowed to provide paper documents in person.

Adding to that, every six months, her employer threatens to fire her if she can't prove her legal status in Germany. So she's constantly jumping through hoops to get this temporary paper permit called "Fiktionsbescheinigung" just to keep her job. It's a hassle, costs €13 each time, and involves cycling through multiple unhelpful bureaucrats at the Ausländerbehörde's hotline (they do not answer emails) until finding one that very reluctantly produces this document.

All of this is beyond frustrating.

[1] https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/muenchen-kvr-auslaenderbeh... [2] https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/a...

[ffsm8]

Germany's head of state was involved in the biggest financial scandal of its existence and forgave a corrupt bank that stole millions of taxes just a few years before going into office.

corruption is spreading like a plague with no consequence in sight for anyone involved.

[tcmb]

Olaf Scholz is the head of the government, Germany's head of state is its president, currently Frank-Walter Steinmeier.

[marenkay]

If you believe corruption is just spreading now, you missed every single politician since the founding of Germany. Or every other country on the whole planet therefore.

Wikipedia documents that well enough.

[nicbou]

Yes, bureaucrats can act as gatekeepers for things that you are legally entitled to, and create various bureaucratic hurdles. It's usually mere thoroughness, sometimes incompetence, and if you cross them, vindictiveness.

I was told more than once by very knowledgeable people that if you anger a case worker, they can and will make your life hard by nitpicking every little detail and asking for as many documents as they can.

This happens for example if you get angry at their incompetence, or if you sue them for inaction (although in Berlin they see it as normal business by now).

[bratwurst3000]

This is so true . There is a word for it in German… behördenwillkür. Mean they can do with you as they please. Advocate insurance is a must here. I hate the bureaucracy here. Lawyers are the only help

[nicbou]

Legal insurance does not cover immigration a lot of the time

[nixass]

Folks, you can travel outside of Germany for sure, as long as you stay inside Schengen.

[egorfine]

Theoretically, yes.

Practically, not anymore: there are block posts on main roads into Germany and they check passports.

[gambiting]

Uhm, no - when did you try travelling last? I just crossed the border to Germany from Poland(both ways) and there is nothing there. And before that I drove over in January and there was a huge queue because of "checkpoints to combat illegal immigration" and that checkpoint was just a bunch of border guards standing there looking at cars passing by, they weren't checking passports or much of anything really, it's all just theatre.

Also did you forget flying?

[egorfine]

About five days ago, Szczecin → Berlin, stopped, had my documents meticulously examined and asked some typical questions I haven't been asked for a decade ("What's your proof of residence", etc).

I look like a typical WASP programmer in his forties, so no selection bias or something.

[gambiting]

I guess it's just random stops or some checkpoints are more stringent than others.

[tietjens]

What counts as proof of residence in this case? Asking so I could prepare.

[aeyes]

They pull out some cars, last winter I got pulled out at the border when I entered Germany from Austria. They wanted to see our passports and asked where we were going.

[LtWorf]

They wanted to see a valid national id of any shengen country, which are easier to get than passports (except in sweden, because it's the police releasing both, so might as well just get a passport).

[nicbou]

I did get checked a few times while heading from the Balkans back to Germany. There are also random checks in buses and trains.

[LtWorf]

National id is completely fine inside shengen. Please inform yourself before spreading misinformation.

[mkesper]

Please add a link for people relying on this info.

[stavros]

A link to what? Travel within the Schengen area is unrestricted, you can drive or fly to wherever you want and nobody will check passports.

[rkachowski]

This isn't true, this year I have been on a train from Marseille to Berlin and German police checked everyone on the train for passports at the border specifically to check residence validity - and removed one passenger with a residence permit as he attempted to reenter Germany (he was informed he was not initially permitted to leave)

[stavros]

Those are random spot checks, there's no border between France and Germany where everyone's passport will be checked.

[berdario]

That's true, and if you're doing intra-Schengen travel to attend a relative's funeral, I'd consider risking it...

But otherwise: keep in mind that the freedom of movement is reserved to EU citizens (and their families): if you had to get a residence permit (and thus you're a non-EU national), you don't have the same rights.

Even without temporary (Covid, terrorism, etc.) internal checks, you can be stopped by police (national laws will differ) and be asked to show proof of id, and proof of your right to stay.

The fact that you have a pending residence application in progress will usually give the right to stay in the country that you applied in, but that proof might be as flimsy as as a stamped slip of paper (not even a A4 paper with a letterhead) and/or an email in the local language. Don't expect German police to be able to read and accept your Italian piece of paper, or viceversa Italian police to read and accept your piece of paper in German.

In fact, the same applies for non-EU family of EU citizens: the residence permits will be denied only in extreme cases (e.g. terrorism)... if you're just a non-EU citizen, there are even more situations in which that would apply. Imagine that the country that you applied in might refuse your residence permit: you'd then have to leave the country and Schengen (or file some kind of appeal), and that would make it even clearer that you wouldn't have right to stay in another Schengen country.

So, you might not have right to stay (in another Schengen country), and even if you might have it, proving your right might not be easy.

About the

> Please add a link

The original request could've made sense (you could have for example linked to directive 2004/38/EC , but that doesn't apply to people who aren't EU citizens or family of EU citizens)... but note that in this case we're trying to prove a negative (the laws will usually describe which rights you have, but not in which case you don't have such a right... you might find a guidance or case law document, but those are scarcer)

Again: the whole situation is really unfortunate, because the laws are also written with the expectation that you won't have to wait long after applying for the necessary documents. And even when the laws are clear about the timelines, the bureaucracy will try to weasel themselves out of it, for example Article 10 of the aforementioned directive states:

> The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application. A certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued immediately

Of course, when we had to deal with it, the bureaucracy just asserted that until you show up for the appointment (which you had to wait more than 3 months for, since you originally applied), you haven't actually "submitted your application", yet.

As an EU citizen, realizing first-hand how slow, uncertain, and oppressive our immigration system is, really left a bad taste in my mouth... If you're not a citizen of the EU or an “Annex II” country, I wish you good luck when applying for a Schengen visa, but in case that you might get rejected: don't sweat it, and just consider other destinations, if you're planning a vacation... there are a bunch more places with friendlier visa policies (e.g. Turkiye, Cape Verde, Morocco, UAE, etc.)

[slowmotiony]

"Folks, you can travel outside of Germany for sure, just avoid the police, the border authorities and don't get caught."

[wouldbecouldbe]

Try Spain, takes years

[pezezin]

I guess that depends on the city and the procedure, but I had to replace my DNI last summer and it took me less than 30 minutes, and they gave me the new one on the spot.

In comparison I also had to renew my Japanese foreign card and later my ID card, and both procedures were a royal PITA, and in both cases I had to wait a month to get the new card.

[wouldbecouldbe]

Yeah had a close person getting passport after marriage, took years, they made a mistake, another 1.5 years. Took over 5 years in the end.

Lawyers making mistakes, civil cervants making mistakes, making mistakes themselves. Big mess. They are actually breaking EU law while doing these things.

[ricardobayes]

That actually was very interesting for me, living in Spain, how extremely common mistakes were in data entry, generally. If anyone hands you a form to check your details, you can almost guarantee to find some issue. I've never noticed this living in any other country yet.

[ab_testing]

Not saying Germany is slow, but that is one area where US is far behind. 21 Months - This is the current processing time for a green card after you have sent in all the paperwork to the USCIS for processing. During that time, you get no updates and of-course if you leave the country without AP, your application is considered to be abandoned.

https://imgur.com/a/t8rYOjv

[a_bonobo]

It's the same in Australia; when you apply for permanent residency your application goes into a black hole. I wanted to learn more about my status and all I got back from the immigration people was 'the agent processing your application will contact you. We do not give out contact details for your agent. You will have to wait'. It took about 8 months.

Once your 'regular' visa expires you go onto a bridging visa which same, you can't really leave the country.

It's expensive as hell too: I think in the end I had a total cost of $7,000, just in application fees. Sounds like immigration is horrible everywhere.

[mb_72]

8 months is not that long; these days the wait is longer. However, you are aware of how long the wait will be, there information is right there on the Australian Immigration website: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-pr...

Providing updates to everyone waiting simply wastes time and resources; again, you know roughly how long it's going to take as the estimated times are provided. Hassling the agent on your case is unnecessary.

Regarding leaving and returning Australia - Bridging Visa class Bs are made available if you have good reasons to be leaving and coming back.

I can see this from two sides - my (now ex) wife went through getting temporary then permanent residency in Australia; yes, it was a pain and expensive, but Australia has high standards of living etc, which is why lots of people want to come here. The other side is this - immigration is one of the reasons why there are not enough houses to buy or places to rent, making life difficult for citizens or people who have PR or TR. So if the process of having more immigrants who also require housing is expensive or difficult, I think you'll find a lot of people are not particular sympathetic.

[rtpg]

Japan immigration (if you have a college degree) seems to be pretty high up there. PR takes a while, and processing is a bit of a black hole, but generally speaking you apply, application extends your visa a bit, and they get back to you within the period. And it’s maybe $100?

People complain but its generally predictable save for applications for a 3 year visa can lead to a 1 year visa or a 3 year visa or a 5 year visa

[usr1106]

Isn't Japan the industrialized nation with the lowest fraction of foreigners?

[shiroiushi]

AFAICT, Japan has the easiest immigration for skilled professionals, by far. However, this has been the case for less than 10 years, as they totally revamped their immigration laws in the 2010s sometime to try to attract more such people, so of course it's going to take time to see the difference. Japan is also somewhat difficult for foreigners to live in because of the language barrier, but Germany isn't that different here: in my experience as a tourist there, it's nothing like Netherlands where everyone and their dog speaks perfect English. In Germany, the college-educated people generally speak it quite well, everyone else, you're lucky if they know any at all, and it seems like you won't do well living there if you can't speak the language. In Japan, it just depends on your company: a lot of people here have lived here for years or decades and still don't speak Japanese, because their job is in English. German is probably easier for European-language speakers to learn though.

[usr1106]

> it's nothing like Netherlands where everyone and their dog speaks perfect English. In Germany, the college-educated people generally speak it quite well, everyone else, you're lucky if they know any at all, and it seems like you won't do well living there if you can't speak the language.

There are 2 kinds of countries in Europe:

- Those where movies and TV shows are dubbed: Germany, France etc. Especially the older generations and working class don't speak English too well

- Those where movies are English with subtitles: Many of the smaller countries with their own native language. So everybody is exposed to English all the time and many speak English pretty well.

(Have not watched movies in the Netherlands, but I could guess many are not dubbed?)

[dash2]

My experience in East Germany was that even waiters spoke pretty decent English and would switch to it at any opportunity. Not quite Holland, but not far off. I had a friend who had lived there 10 years and still didn't speak German.

[pezezin]

> Japan is also somewhat difficult for foreigners to live in because of the language barrier, but Germany isn't that different here

In the case of Japan, you also have the insanely difficult writing system, probably the most difficult writing system in current usage. The German language might be difficult, but at least it uses an alphabet with a somewhat consistent spelling.

[laverya]

> German is probably easier for European-language speakers to learn though.

This is a bit of an understatement. Japanese is a category-V language, taking an estimated 88 weeks of full-time study to learn, while German is a category-II language taking just 30 weeks.

[skinpop]

There are other reasons for that. Application is cheap and relatively fast(~3 months in my case).

[shiroiushi]

>And it’s maybe $100?

Even better, it's 8000 yen, which with the current exchange rate is about USD $60.

[worddepress]

Australia "what countries have you been to and when" is fun, if you have traveled a bit. I thought being to Tunisia during arab spring and China and Russia might be issues! Overall it was hours of paperwork. Wife's grandmothers maiden name kinda crap in there too IIRC. Upside is Citizenship was relatively easy after this (because you have done PR already). Just had to learn some stuff about what happens in Canberra :-).

[RoyalHenOil]

It took me almost two years to get my permanent visa in Australia (Liberals were in power at the time and had just gutted the immigration department shortly before I applied).

However, I did not have any issues with the bridging visa. It gave me full rights to employment, medicare, and fair taxation (unlike the Work and Holiday Visa I started with, which drastically limited my ability to work, had me paying all medical expenses out-of-pocket, and taxed all my income at the highest tax bracket), and I traveled overseas a few times on it without any issues.

The application fees were expensive, but the bridging visa more than made up for it. I made much more money on the bridging visa than it cost me to apply, so even if my application had been rejected, I would have come out far ahead financially and had a lovely 2-year working holiday in Australia — far better than what the Work and Holiday Visa offers.

[imajoredinecon]

Some of the US citizen-facing services are very backlogged too. For example, it's around 18 months to get a response when you apply for the US-Canada travel fast lane ("NEXUS").

[vinay427]

It is at least valid in the meantime, and doesn’t affect travel rights like the immigration examples mentioned in various countries, but I agree that this is mildly annoying.

[cscurmudgeon]

Part of the reason is the green card queue size for US is much larger than that for Germany.

The USCIS website also shows your status and gives a rough timeline.

[makeitdouble]

As far as I know, it's par for the course for immigration in most countries I ever heard of. On the other hand, anyone who heard of consistently nice immigration procedure for normal people (not Messi) should chime in.

From a incentive strucutre POV, they lose nothing from false positives (denying entry to someone who would have been fine) as candidates will probably try again anyway, and no one will come after them for their shitty procedures as by definition applicants aren't full voting citizens and stay in a weaker position possibly all their life (imagine filing a complaint and having your name on a black list the rest of your immigration life, even if that list probably doesn't exist. That fear alone is enough to let a lot of things slide)

[nicbou]

> From a incentive strucutre POV, they lose nothing from false positives

I strongly disagree. If you try to attract skilled labour, such hurdles can keep many of them at bay. Germany can become known as a country that's not worth the fight. I have seen a _lot_ of stories about people giving up and leaving, usually because of immigration office delays, but sometimes because they were worn down by other demands.

It also affects the bottom line as Germany becomes a country businesses avoid, either because it's too much effort to set up the business, or too much effort to attract international talent.

You are right that immigrants are invisible as a voter base, but the cumulative effects of their neglect are significant to the German economy, and to the pensions of people who can vote.

[barbazoo]

Other countries that see immigration as an opportunity have systems that are far far superior to that of Germany. In Germany it's often not clear what status a process is in and no way to get updates. There often is no web portal or anything like that, it's nuts. For instance you submit an application for the retention of your German passport and then basically wait 2+ years for the answer to come back. No one answered my questions. It's very frustrating. On top of that I got threatened with the BKA if I didn't surrender certain documents without ever having been asked to in the first place. Straight to escalation. It's just very unpleasant. Maybe that should be their motto.

[makeitdouble]

Yes, the country needs to be both competent and strongly willing to court new comers and permanent residents in the first place.

On your experience, it really feels like a PITA. It won't help, but Japan and France are basically the same. You'll see procedures listed as typically taking 2~3 months, check back every now and then, and low and behold a year and half later you have absolutely no idea of what's going on, if your submission has been forgotten or is contentious. There's no recourse as long as you haven't been refused, so it's limbo until something happens.

People are right to bitch about these lengthy and utterly frustrating procedures, I just don't see a way out of it short of being rich, famous or finding a loophole that lets you force a government agency do something in a timely manner without getting a target on your back.

To note, France had much progress in the last decades, in that bullshit requirements were made illegal a few years ago. At least you can check everything needed on an official site and not be subjected to petty additional requirements when dealing with the local entity (yes, that was a thing, probably to make it extra hard for specific portions of the population to properly file procedures)

[shiroiushi]

><but Japan and France are basically the same. You'll see procedures listed as typically taking 2~3 months, check back every now and then, and low and behold a year and half later you have absolutely no idea of what's going on,

When did you have this experience in Japan? In my experience, immigrating to Japan is a breeze. Even during Covid, it took about 2 months to process my work visa, and from there everything was fast and easy.

PR is pretty slow, though: my coworkers who have applied are reporting wait times of about 9 months.

[makeitdouble]

That might be the difference between the types of visa.

The standard spouse visa was around 4 months (during covid as well) when it should have been pretty quick according to the clerk receiving it. Tried PR at two different times, first time I moved abroad after half a year, before it finished, second time was a year and half from now and it's still pending with no update.

On any of the visa I applied for I'm meeting the criteria on multiple standards (e.g. I'm both a spouse and father of a national, and employed locally) and never got a rejection, so it's just plainly taking a huge amount of time. I got used to it though.

PS: also it's hilarious to write about your romance with your partner, detailing your dates, attach Disneyland photos etc. and imagine officers in their suits reading all of that with straight faces.

[lifestyleguru]

The contrast to red carped rolled out for Arab, Chinese, or Russian billionaires is staggering.

[Rinzler89]

>Other countries that see immigration as an opportunity have systems that are far far superior to that of Germany.

Do you have any examples for this? Genuinely curious.

From where I stand most EU countries right now are talking steps backwards on this as they've become overloaded with migration waves, housing shortages, stagnating wages, which increased the far right support, so the hot topic now is how to discourage ALL immigration, not how to make life better and easier for SOME immigrants to attract them.

Sure, you obviously want to encourage the useful skilled immigration, but like I said, from where I stand it seems countries don't distinguish and are trying to make life hell for all immigrants just to plase the right wing voters since those would be frothing at the mouth if they heard their government is rolling out the red carped to attract SOME immigrants, so then for simplicity the political issue is binary, IMMIGRANTS or NO IMMIGRANTS.

[Rels]

As someone that became a permanent resident and later a citizen of Canada, the process was relatively painless compared to what I read for other countries, and could be tracked along its different steps using a web UI.

[Symbiote]

Denmark is the same.

The official website says the wait time for permanent residency is "up to 10 months", and searching Reddit suggests 3-6 months is more normal.

Denmark is not particularly welcoming to immigrants, but they do with rules rather than inefficient paperwork.

[miningape]

Hell no. I applied for citizenship over a year ago now and no communication has been made with me. I'm also not sure where this "up to 10 months" is coming from because when I applied (and recently checked) it says "over 2 years". On top of that I'm not sure what reddit you're looking at, but the ones I'm looking at are constantly complaining about how long the process is taking - how they expected it in 2022 and are still waiting in 2024.

Also this "web ui" is so bad and difficult to work with. I lost all the data I input at least twice, also the forms do no seem up to date with the requirements (requirements on newindenmark are different from what is presented on the form).

[Symbiote]

It says 10 months here: https://www.nyidanmark.dk/de-DE/You-want-to-apply/Permanent-...

Citizenship is not the same thing as permanent residence.

[lifestyleguru]

The entire second paragraph is negative selection. Some countries like Germany, Switzerland, US are highly desirable but there is no reason to be so arrogant about it. This way e.g. Germany chased away entire generation of millennials from post-Communist countries. Now Germany is receiving the profile of immigrants they deserve - they have a handful of passports and diplomas each, and most are forged.

[niemandhier]

My sympathy for your troubles, but please keep in mind: Everybody is processing Ukranians and Arabs. The system was never meant for such a rapid influx of people.

The people working on immigration are not lazy or unmotivated, they are exhausted.

[jamil7]

Have you gone through the process? The system wasn’t “designed” at all, it’s completely broken and chaotic. It is 100% the fault of this system and not that of the immigrants going through it.

Some of the people involved can also be extremely unpleasant to deal with, even if you speak German.

[niemandhier]

I accompanied several friends through the process.

My observation was that by simply changing the view on what is happening and extrapolating how to act based on that one can achieve quite a lot.

I told people the following:

1. The person dealing with you is not there to help you, they are simply executing an act of governance. Rather than wanting them to help you, try to help them close their tickt.

2. You are the type of immigrant people actually want. These popele see lots of drama, lies, heartbreak and hopelessness. If you are pleasant and well prepared they will probably like working on your case since it will not make them feel bad.

3. Things take time. Be as early as possible with everything and realize that there early is a way to speed things up.

Keeping those three things to heart worked very well. That does not make things faster, but it takes a lot of frustration out of the process.

[amonavis]

To me this is a weird view of government services. I'm paying taxes to have a system serve me, and to have processes support my life not the other way around. Leaving all emotions out of the equation, the job of the jurisdiction under which I fall is so facilitate my legality so I can pursue a productive and enjoyable life. If I'm paying taxes and I'm expected to pitch in the governmental effort, then that's not where I want to be.

[duggan]

You can deal with the world either how you wish it were, or how it is.

The reality is that bureaucracies are full of humans – and we all know how humans are.

[Rinzler89]

Everything is full of humans, but private companies with terrible processes workers would usually have consequences that demand some change. Government services have no competition sos they are exempt from consequences if they're terrible.

[column]

When you pay for a service, public or private, you are still dealing with humans that are not your slaves.So be kind and you'll get a better time or be entitled and you'll go to the bottom of the pile.

[Hendrikto]

You can either try to make that ideal work, or accept reality.

[Ratelman]

This is a brilliant view and probably applies to most situations when a person has to process something - not just government and not just Germany. Very, very few people outright don't want to help - if you come in trying to be the light in their day, they'll WANT to help you get your things done quickly and efficiently, and vice versa. A kind reminder, thanks @niemandhier

[egorfine]

So much this. As a ukrainian, I have been immensely helped by the government officer in Germany while applying for temporal protection - just by being nice and understanding.

Still took months with no success, because the German bureaucracy is in complete disrepair and is brain damaged.

[Semaphor]

Not myself, but I accompanied my wife every time, and she’s now a permanent resident. The last time we just wanted to extend her temporary residence permit, they even advised us that we have no reason to do that and could just apply for permanent residence (which we then did).

Waiting times are annoying, but that is because of an overloaded system, everything else was pretty painless.

[jamil7]

I'm glad it was straightforward for you. I've gone for a number of temporary visas and had mixed experiences. I was in a very similar situation on my last visit and was, like your wife recommended to go straight for permanent residency, which ended up being a 6 month process with multiple visits and dealing with about 4-5 different people. This was all happening during the immigration reforms so that might have been a large part of the problem (requirements changed mid-way through).

[Semaphor]

Ouch, that sounds painful. Permanent residency took 1.5 months and only required one more visit once everything was done.

[shiroiushi]

>Some of the people involved can also be extremely unpleasant to deal with, even if you speak German.

Isn't this just German culture, though? I had that experience just buying groceries and going through the checkout line!

[allarm]

Absolutely not. I've lived in 2 cities in Germany for 2 years and Germans are the nicest people I've ever met. That's my second immigration and I travel a lot, so I can compare.

[danielbln]

It was already a shit show 10 years ago, so while the influx surely didn't help, it isn't like it wasn't broken already.

[nicbou]

Syria, Brexit, covid, Ukraine. At this point they should have adapted.

[mdekkers]

> Everybody is processing Ukranians and Arabs.

That’s nonsense. The Ukrainians go through an expedited process. Before the war we put in an application for my spouse - 3rd party national spouse of an EU citizen process - we applied pretty much the day after we arrived and a few days before we left the country to live elsewhere (2 1/2 years later) we got a letter that they are considering giving her an appointment.

The German bureaucracy sucks hard.

[niemandhier]

It’s the same people that get allocated tasks generated in those processes. They even get shifted between departments.

It does not really help to have separate queues if those are served by the same worker.

[jajko]

This happened to me recently in Switzerland (canton Geneve for insiders, that already explains a bit), but for 12 months.

After being here for 10+ years straight, fully working. Existence of my whole family here and our whole life depended on it, yet I clealy hit a very incompetent (and completely unreachable) bureaucrat. My boss went through same process during mine, 3 weeks and done.

The difference? He is from western part of EU, I am from eastern. Shouldn't make a difference just like colour of skin shouldn't, but it does, in 1000 ways, subtle or not, but this was by far the worst and coming from state/canton.

Utterly miserable and prolonged experience, being in legal vacuum with small kids, while doing everything precisely and timely just like Swiss do and like to see in immigrants. Lost quite a few ideals about Switzerland during those desperate times.

[egorfine]

My friend has the same experience in Geneve.

He is living here for like 20 years and still has to fight every year or so for the permit extension.

[callalex]

From a USA perspective, I find that usually when a bureaucratic process is hopelessly broken, it is because a small portion of the population actively hates the people that would benefit from the process and want to harm them. However they cannot legally or popularly discriminate against them so instead they destroy the processes that benefit the hated group. Do you get that impression where you are too?

[thsksbd]

If foreigners are in of the hated groups, my personally lived experience serves a counter point.

During my naturalization I was caught by surprise by how quickly my application had been handled. The agent giving me the exam winked and said: "it's election season".

Whatever that means.

[moomoo11]

Are you highly educated?

My father has only a certificate and no degree or anything like that.

It took him 20 years to get citizenship. We came 3 years after he come here and we all became citizens together.

My friends whose parents were doctors or had masters degree would get their GC and citizenships in like 5 years.

[RamblingCTO]

Of course high education and value to the labour market make you a good immigrant, and the lack thereof a "bad" one with less value. Is this something that surprises you?

[thsksbd]

You're conflating things. GC is different (albeit necessary) from naturalization. I clearly said my citizenship took 6 months. My GC took 6 or 8 years and I got it through my wife.

For those 6 to 8 years I had a student visa then an H1B. Despite having a PhD in the top US program in my field from a top five school.

My wife got her GC through the lottery before she finished university (ie w/ a HS diploma) with 0 years living in the US

[physhster]

Given the amount of immigrants in Europe in general and in Germany in particular, I don't think they are trying to deter people. Or if they are trying it's not working.

The incompetence is not confined to immigration, it's pretty much everywhere. Same goes for France actually.

[chii]

i wonder how much of the "incompetence" is really just under-staffing, and how much is the public servants being paid to essentially do little/no work.

[nicbou]

It plays a major role. That, the increasing number of applicants and inefficient, paper-based bureaucracy are the three major causes, I would say.

[philsnow]

The impression I got from the last time I was in Germany (some ~7 years ago), there's a going concern among at least some people that a certain ethnicity of immigrants is "taking over". This might be a pearl-clutching minority, or I may have completely misread the situation.

[Escapado]

German reporting in. Disclaimer: I am biased as I think immigration is great and I wish the process was easier and faster for those seeking to live in Germany. I think your observation is sadly very correct and this minority is very well measurable and concerningly large and growing in a lot of places. Just look at how many people vote for the AfD. Those are the ones having that concern. Luckily some places(e.g. Hamburg, Berlin) are on average more open to foreigners than others (e.g. Sachsen).

[nicbou]

There seems to be a growing frustration about asylum seekers who moved to Germany and did not adopt German values, a theme you will find in every country.

It's scary because the party that complains the most about it is gaining traction, and it convinces centrist parties to change their stance on immigration. It's not a pearl-clutching minority anymore, but a politically advantageous position.

As an immigrant, I feel like we're about to live a variation of the Niemöller poem. "First they came for the asylum seekers..."

[bluecalm]

Well, when you come to a country you should make an effort to adopt the country's values and customs. If you stay for longer you should also make an effort to learn the language.

If you are not doing any of that is that really that surprising that people are getting fed up with it?

[gunsle]

Agreed, but even here in the states that has been considered a “racist” position for decades, as has securing the borders. Which after doing a lot of international travel confuses me. I wouldn’t illegally move to Japan, expect them to not deport me, allow me to use social services, and also not mind if I brought my own culture with me without attempting to assimilate on some level.

[TacticalCoder]

> There seems to be a growing frustration about asylum seekers who moved to Germany and did not adopt German values, a theme you will find in every country.

I'd like to see white, christians or atheists, germans move to some of the countries those asylum seekers are coming from and see how they'd be treated.

Then we can discuss if it's the same in every country.

[emmelaich]

I love this comment because it's such a Rorschach blot, to be read any way you want.

To properly read this in your intended meaning, do we need to find the political and ethnic makeup of the immigration department? Or society at large?

[vineyardmike]

(as a fellow American) They almost certainly meant this as "politicians, or their voters, have some bias/hate against something, so they destroy the bureaucracy that benefits those people".

Eg. Republicans hate taxes, so they defund the IRS (tax collectors), to make it harder for the government to audit tax evasion.

[callalex]

I wasn’t even speaking specifically to immigration, but I can understand why everyone thought that because of who I replied to.

[roenxi]

This perspective remains kinda crazy. Why do US people keep trying to route control of major parts of their life through a system where they believe people who "actively hates the people who would benefit from the process" have significant influence?

People come up with this from time to time but the logical conclusion is small governments. It has been a few centuries now and there hasn't been any progress in improving the quality of the politicians; it isn't going to change. Every single government, literally, has people in it who would be morally comfortable in a Nazi-style dictatorship. Any plan that involves empowering these people is stupid.

[dgfitz]

Being a white, middle-aged, middle-class male in America I can say I have no productive things to say about how my local, state, or federal government has benefitted myself or my family beyond the things everyone else also benefits from. I don’t get assistance for anything, I don’t get breaks on anything, no free services, etc.

If your first reaction to this is “well you don’t need anything!” you must be one of the people that was astonished at how the 2016 election went.

No I didn’t vote for the guy and I hope he loses this time.

[thsksbd]

Furthermore, I pay for services I don't avail myself of (my kids go to parochial schools). And since I don't live in the city, but a rich suburb, it means that Im subsidizing my neighbor's BMW.

I dont even mind school taxes, actually. I just believe that the monies should follow the student and not the school district.

[vineyardmike]

> Why do US people keep trying to route control of major parts of their life through a system where ..

Because sometimes you don't have a say, or you don't expect to use it. No politician ever campaigned on making the lines at the DMV move faster. But we (mostly) all agree you should be required to get a license before you drive. Most Americans drive, and few have chose to route this "major part of their life" away from the DMV.

Immigration process (as this thread illustrates) sucks. It's also not a process used by voters.

The process to apply for welfare in most parts of the US sucks, but the actual welfare is valuable. People think by making it harder, it will instead result in people who are less reliant upon it. Welfare recipients are a huge political target constantly. They're the individuals who are "actively hated" in this example, and they're entirely dependent on the system in that moment, because thats how misfortune works.

Many cities making construction permits hard to get, because local residents don't want their neighborhood changing, so they petition local politicians to make the process slower/harder/more-expensive. In this example they "hate" the new construction.

If you're not a high schooler and you're applying to a state-funded university, the process to prove you're a local resident can be surprisingly complicated. This is because it's designed for high school students and all the edge cases are optimized to avoid accidentally providing tax-subsidized "in-state" tuition to an out-of-state resident. For example, I wanted to take a for-fun class at a local university and because I didn't have a local high school to vouch for my residency, I needed to provide (among other things) 50+ pages of tax documents. It took 2 semesters (1y) to prove I lived in the state, and the minimum amount of time you need to live in-state is 1 year.

People who live their life in the "happy-path" case often don't deal with the government, and don't understand the struggle of these edge cases. Plenty of activities require the government. No way around it. Sometimes, people who think "small government" is the solution end up making those processes terrible by making it understaffed or convoluted to "avoid waste".

[csomar]

Sure. But why accept these people in the first place? I think if there was a consensus, then they would not be accepted. The US is not shy to refuse them entry or to concentrate camp them somewhere. The reality is that there is two factions; one is for and one is against. So you are in for a wild ride.

[switch007]

Nailed it. Then you get Hanlon's Razor obsessed people rushing to defend the government. It works wonders

[dotnet00]

As the other user said, this is just the conspiracy politcs obsessed partisan weirdos would like for you to believe. After all, if their side is so benevolent and immigrant loving, why haven't they pushed any genuine immigration system reforms instead of just creating a captive subclass in the form of illegal immigrants?

For instance, if Republicans are really so hateful of certain minorities, why do they not properly go after things like H1B mills (which benefits minorities more than the rich white people that they supposedly want to limit immigration to)? or take effective action to seal off the borders and make immigration policy stricter? As an immigrant myself, I'd take even that over the current hellish system where you spend a decent chunk of your life in limbo, unable to fully settle down because of the uncertainty, since at least then there would be the finality of immediately knowing the doors are closed. The only way the current system is bearable is if you approach it with total apathy, where you avoid getting too attached and just convince yourself that you can also make it in any other country.

Rather than negotiate measures to fix the immigration system (in either direction), both sides would prefer to keep expanding the class of people who are one technicality away from being kicked out, for Republicans it gives them the ability to promise stronger borders every election year, and for Democrats it gives the ability to promise aid to specifically illegal immigrants and of course once elected they can just say that the last guy left a mess and they had their hands full fixing just that or any version of "the other side isn't cooperating/compromising".

A particularly glaring example of this being their inability to agree on a stronger path to permanent residency for PhD holders. Considering that PhDs are generally funded by grants, not offering very easy immigration for PhD holders amounts to training foreigners at your own expense and sending them back to compete with you. PhD holders typically fit the "we only want the best of the best" position of the Republicans (even if we accept the conspiracy that they actually hate all minorities, it'd be a convenient way to 'wash' that image, without having to accept all that many minorities), and for Democrats it would be a very easy "look, we're slowly working to fix immigration" action.

[api]

I don’t like to both sides many things but immigration is definitely one case. The system is broken on purpose because US agriculture, construction, and many other labor intensive trades can’t operate profitably without a migrant labor underclass. Nobody wants to fix this. Not Democrats, not Republicans.

Add to that the fact that the Republicans now have a second reason not to fix immigration: they can’t run on it if it’s not broken.

If Trump gets in again he will do a lot of anti immigration theater for his base but nothing will really change. Democrats won’t fix it either. Someone has to pick berries and trim hedges.

[ricardobayes]

In the US, there is a path for PhD holders, to my knowledge, it's called EB-2.

[dotnet00]

EB-2 is technically a path, but from all I've heard it's not that much easier than the regular pipeline, since it involves having 10 years of post-degree experience, thus still leaving you at the mercy of the H1B process in the meantime. That process is also still dependent on the employer's willingness to sponsor, and I've seen several cases of employers refusing to go beyond an H1B sponsorship (of course, they only outright say that right near the end of the H1B's maximum term). 10 years is also still on the order of the time it takes to get permanent residency through the normal lottery.

[Newlaptop]

This is not a USA perspective. This is a conspiracy theory perspective from spending too much time in liberal/progressive echo-chambers that repeat fearful, hateful myths about their political opponents.

[auzjabbajixkf]

I’m glad you can believe this is true, genuinely. I have hope that maybe this means things will change.

But as a white guy from middle American (in that I lived there for 40 years) who has voted Republican and Democrat and has enough conservative ideas that people are often confused about my political leanings, I can tell you there is some truth to this.

I’ve been in the room more than several hundred times when people who were working in the American bureaucracy openly "decried the horrors of the Mexican invasion ". I will admit the majority of that was my ex’s father but it wasn’t only him. I’m certain he did not make things easier on his Mexican applicants (dmv in his case).

I’ve also heard racial slurs used hundreds of thousands of times, very few people engaging in this voted democrat.

I’m sure there are endless stupid conspiracy theories in progressive echo chambers, I hear them from time to time they are just as silly as republican ones and I would love nothing more the above comment to be correct.

In the end, their experience definitely does not match up with mine and we should all be sad.

[julian_t]

The same kind of thing happens in the US. A relative (a Brit) needed to renew his visa, put in the application and heard nothing for months, and a immigration lawyer told him that it could take over a year to process.

But the lawyer also said that it would be worth trying a consulate overseas, as they were often a lot more efficient. So (as his wife had business in Berlin) he made an appointment with the consulate in Frankfurt. From interview to getting his passport back with visa - five days.

[type0]

They use this book called "Der Process" as a manual

[rcbdev]

You can really feel that Kafka was an Austrian in his writings.

[generic92034]

Is that a correct assignment? Austria-Hungary was a thing back then, but someone born and mostly living in Prague I would not call Austrian today.

[nic547]

AFAIK Prague (and Bohemia) had a sizeable german speaking minority until the end of WW2 when they got expelled, so Prague not feeling Austrian today isn't surprising.

[Havoc]

It’s not just Germany - I’ve got a similar can’t leave situation in UK currently

[rtpg]

I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires. I’m not for stricter rules but I’ve heard this from several people (I think people in the US as well) and it seems like “permit to enter/leave” is a very weird structure instead of “permit to be here”.

I think most immigration offices in the world are pretty much black boxes, mainly because that’s their coping mechanism to deal with the influx of bargaining from rejections they would otherwise have. But it would be nice to have… some proof of progress.

[troupo]

> I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires.

In many countries this is viewed as "it's not your fault, it's the state's fault that the state hasn't processed your application yet, so we will not punish you for the state's tardiness"

[rtpg]

Hmmm… that makes more sense. My experience was getting a visa automatically extended for N months on application, and applications not ever being processed slower than that. But I can totally see the US having wild backlog, for example

[troupo]

In Sweden I waited for my citizenship for almost two years, but yeah it surely sucks

[csomar]

> I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires.

I think most countries are like this. Essentially, you are in a "on-hold" status until immigration decides your fate. It's supposed to be temporary but it can take years depending on the country and the circumstance.

[ant6n]

This exists in Canada as well. Ad long as u apply for the next resident permit (e.g. student permit) before the old one expires u have an „implied status“ that continues as long as u don’t leave the country.

[Simon_ORourke]

I went down to the local Ausländerbehörde in Berlin (a place where foreigners register with the state), having very very minimal German. I was promptly handed a form in German to fill out. More than slightly flustered and in a bit of rush to get it done, I put down "25" in a box that I thought was age, but in actuality was the number of times you were married. Never much helped my application that I think!

[sokols]

That's strange, I remember those forms were trilingual, 12 years ago. German, English and French.

[Hendrikto]

> I did not understand what I was doing, so I just did something random, and it did not work out for me.

Sounds like that one was largely on you…

[ktosobcy]

Uhm... In Chile I was in same limbo for almost 4 years - my temp residency expired, before the expiration had option to either leave the country or request permanent residency. I opted for the latter, submitted all the documents and... waited almost 3 years for the resolution. In the meantime I had my ID but it expired and I couldn't request new one. Supposedly with a certificate that I'm in the process of getting permanent residency I could use the expired ID but lots of institutions, especially banks, would simply ignore the law and reject the ID as invalid...

[anovikov]

That happens in many countries and usually experience is exactly the same

[kanbara]

mine took like a few weeks and was very painless, even in berlin. anecdata ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[egorfine]

It used to be painless indeed but only and solely in Berlin.

Perhaps too many software developers in the city government of Berlin broke the process to a point it now actually works.