[makeitdouble]

As far as I know, it's par for the course for immigration in most countries I ever heard of. On the other hand, anyone who heard of consistently nice immigration procedure for normal people (not Messi) should chime in.

From a incentive strucutre POV, they lose nothing from false positives (denying entry to someone who would have been fine) as candidates will probably try again anyway, and no one will come after them for their shitty procedures as by definition applicants aren't full voting citizens and stay in a weaker position possibly all their life (imagine filing a complaint and having your name on a black list the rest of your immigration life, even if that list probably doesn't exist. That fear alone is enough to let a lot of things slide)

[nicbou]

> From a incentive strucutre POV, they lose nothing from false positives

I strongly disagree. If you try to attract skilled labour, such hurdles can keep many of them at bay. Germany can become known as a country that's not worth the fight. I have seen a _lot_ of stories about people giving up and leaving, usually because of immigration office delays, but sometimes because they were worn down by other demands.

It also affects the bottom line as Germany becomes a country businesses avoid, either because it's too much effort to set up the business, or too much effort to attract international talent.

You are right that immigrants are invisible as a voter base, but the cumulative effects of their neglect are significant to the German economy, and to the pensions of people who can vote.

[barbazoo]

Other countries that see immigration as an opportunity have systems that are far far superior to that of Germany. In Germany it's often not clear what status a process is in and no way to get updates. There often is no web portal or anything like that, it's nuts. For instance you submit an application for the retention of your German passport and then basically wait 2+ years for the answer to come back. No one answered my questions. It's very frustrating. On top of that I got threatened with the BKA if I didn't surrender certain documents without ever having been asked to in the first place. Straight to escalation. It's just very unpleasant. Maybe that should be their motto.

[makeitdouble]

Yes, the country needs to be both competent and strongly willing to court new comers and permanent residents in the first place.

On your experience, it really feels like a PITA. It won't help, but Japan and France are basically the same. You'll see procedures listed as typically taking 2~3 months, check back every now and then, and low and behold a year and half later you have absolutely no idea of what's going on, if your submission has been forgotten or is contentious. There's no recourse as long as you haven't been refused, so it's limbo until something happens.

People are right to bitch about these lengthy and utterly frustrating procedures, I just don't see a way out of it short of being rich, famous or finding a loophole that lets you force a government agency do something in a timely manner without getting a target on your back.

To note, France had much progress in the last decades, in that bullshit requirements were made illegal a few years ago. At least you can check everything needed on an official site and not be subjected to petty additional requirements when dealing with the local entity (yes, that was a thing, probably to make it extra hard for specific portions of the population to properly file procedures)

[shiroiushi]

><but Japan and France are basically the same. You'll see procedures listed as typically taking 2~3 months, check back every now and then, and low and behold a year and half later you have absolutely no idea of what's going on,

When did you have this experience in Japan? In my experience, immigrating to Japan is a breeze. Even during Covid, it took about 2 months to process my work visa, and from there everything was fast and easy.

PR is pretty slow, though: my coworkers who have applied are reporting wait times of about 9 months.

[makeitdouble]

That might be the difference between the types of visa.

The standard spouse visa was around 4 months (during covid as well) when it should have been pretty quick according to the clerk receiving it. Tried PR at two different times, first time I moved abroad after half a year, before it finished, second time was a year and half from now and it's still pending with no update.

On any of the visa I applied for I'm meeting the criteria on multiple standards (e.g. I'm both a spouse and father of a national, and employed locally) and never got a rejection, so it's just plainly taking a huge amount of time. I got used to it though.

PS: also it's hilarious to write about your romance with your partner, detailing your dates, attach Disneyland photos etc. and imagine officers in their suits reading all of that with straight faces.

[lifestyleguru]

The contrast to red carped rolled out for Arab, Chinese, or Russian billionaires is staggering.

[Rinzler89]

>Other countries that see immigration as an opportunity have systems that are far far superior to that of Germany.

Do you have any examples for this? Genuinely curious.

From where I stand most EU countries right now are talking steps backwards on this as they've become overloaded with migration waves, housing shortages, stagnating wages, which increased the far right support, so the hot topic now is how to discourage ALL immigration, not how to make life better and easier for SOME immigrants to attract them.

Sure, you obviously want to encourage the useful skilled immigration, but like I said, from where I stand it seems countries don't distinguish and are trying to make life hell for all immigrants just to plase the right wing voters since those would be frothing at the mouth if they heard their government is rolling out the red carped to attract SOME immigrants, so then for simplicity the political issue is binary, IMMIGRANTS or NO IMMIGRANTS.

[Rels]

As someone that became a permanent resident and later a citizen of Canada, the process was relatively painless compared to what I read for other countries, and could be tracked along its different steps using a web UI.

[Symbiote]

Denmark is the same.

The official website says the wait time for permanent residency is "up to 10 months", and searching Reddit suggests 3-6 months is more normal.

Denmark is not particularly welcoming to immigrants, but they do with rules rather than inefficient paperwork.

[miningape]

Hell no. I applied for citizenship over a year ago now and no communication has been made with me. I'm also not sure where this "up to 10 months" is coming from because when I applied (and recently checked) it says "over 2 years". On top of that I'm not sure what reddit you're looking at, but the ones I'm looking at are constantly complaining about how long the process is taking - how they expected it in 2022 and are still waiting in 2024.

Also this "web ui" is so bad and difficult to work with. I lost all the data I input at least twice, also the forms do no seem up to date with the requirements (requirements on newindenmark are different from what is presented on the form).

[Symbiote]

It says 10 months here: https://www.nyidanmark.dk/de-DE/You-want-to-apply/Permanent-...

Citizenship is not the same thing as permanent residence.

[lifestyleguru]

The entire second paragraph is negative selection. Some countries like Germany, Switzerland, US are highly desirable but there is no reason to be so arrogant about it. This way e.g. Germany chased away entire generation of millennials from post-Communist countries. Now Germany is receiving the profile of immigrants they deserve - they have a handful of passports and diplomas each, and most are forged.