[skeledrew]

Ah, typical. Nature taking its course and, once again, humans decide they know what's better and is going in to "correct" things. Then a few years in there's the cry about the disruption that was caused, and yet even more attempts at rectification. A never-ending cycle, because we can't learn to be hands off. Well I guess the cycle will eventually end given things are always somewhat worse with every swing of the correction pendulum, so at some point it'll all just... crash.

[bungeonsBaggins]

I don't mean to blow your mind, but humans are a part of nature. One advantage we have over other species is that we can spot patterns and work collectively to fix undesirable situations or circumstances. And if our fix causes further problems, we can fix those too!

We're flawed creatures so it's not ideal, but it sure beats being at the mercy of the forces nature uses to correct things on its own, like diseases and famine.

[bcatanzaro]

Yes! Is a beaver dam artificial or natural? I believe everything humans do is part of nature.

[lo_zamoyski]

I would submit that the very idea of "nature", as used informally, is ill-defined and frankly incoherent, and should not be used, or at least should only be used loosely within specific contexts where it does make sense (a healthy ecosystem in which human beings also thrive, which is no doubt a range), like "I love taking walks in nature". What is natural under this definition? If water from a stream natural, but is water synthesized from hydrogen and oxygen unnatural?

The only sensible definition I know of of "natural" is "according to the nature of a thing". Thus, human beings have a nature, and that nature is what determines what is good or bad for us. Arsenic isn't poisonous as such, but it is poisonous to us by virtue of our nature. We are rational animals by nature. And so, unnatural are things which depart from that nature, like the desire to eat glass or having a sexual interest in oak trees and so on. It is the nature of a thing that is the reference point that allows pathologies to be defined. By nature, we should have two arms, hence to lose or lack an arm is a defect. Similarly, psychological disorders only make sense with reference to the normative, which is defined by human nature. To say "everything is natural" renders the word meaningless, annihilating all justifiable and objectively normative statements, which is absurd. If everything is "natural", then nothing is unnatural, because natural is simply identical with everything.

[skeledrew]

And look at the state of the world with all our interventions. We may be "a part of nature", but the things we do to it are definitely not natural. We're the only ones doing collectively irreparable harm, so as not to be at its mercy.

[TeMPOraL]

> We may be "a part of nature", but the things we do to it are definitely not natural.

Name three.

I can think of one: we landed stuff on the Moon and beyond. I think that otherwise, nature has a hard time reaching out beyond low Earth orbit.

Other than that, I can't think of anything we'd consider massive fuckups that nature didn't do better. We're definitely tamer than anything else, considering that life itself is a mass murder fest at every scale, from molecular to planetary.

[skeledrew]

All things nuclear, gross water mismanagement, fossil fuel mining and usage, all things plastic, hunting and killing for sport and other non-nutrient-related desires, extreme resource hoarding, ... that's 6 broad areas so far; shall I continue?

[TeMPOraL]

> All things nuclear

The stupid part is that we're not using nuclear energy, and have irrational fear of nuclear waste relative to much more dangerous, potent, and undiscussed "conventional" industrial waste.

Also naturally ocurring nuclear reactors are a thing. On the surface, too, I'm not talking about the Earth's core here.

> gross water mismanagement

Animals do intentional and unintentional water management too.

> fossil fuel mining and usage, all things plastic

Fair enough, this is unique-ish and we are mishandling it, though the use of either isn't bad per se - rather the unsustainable use.

> hunting and killing for sport and other non-nutrient-related desires

Have you ever seen a cat?

> extreme resource hoarding

That's a fundamental thing all life does.

Keep in mind that nothing in nature is thinking forwards - all life is self-destructively greedy, and nature doesn't care if e.g. some beavers dam a river and accidentally flood a whole valley, killing themselves, their offspring, and extincting a bunch of unique flora and fauna. The stability you see, that people so love and associate with nature - it's not a fixed thing, it's a temporary equilibrium in life killing other life.

[quesera]

I'm not sure I'd count your example, it's just a variation on "wander or explore".

But "Plastics" could be a candidate.

[oasisbob]

The Bradford pear is a cultivar of an imported species from Asia.

Nothing about this tree growing in North America is "nature taking its course".

Humans decided to cultivate it here, and we can choose to stop. Cycles of correction, sure, but attempting to fix problems due to introduced species seems like a worthwhile effort.

[t-3]

Living things have been spreading to new areas and driving others to extinction and being driven extinct for the whole history of life. It's an extremely natural thing.

[skeledrew]

We will consider intervening in nature to be a "worthwhile effort" right up to the moment we finally make the planet 100% uninhabitable.

[hollywood_court]

If we were 'hands off', the Bradford Pear would have never made it to North America in the first place.

[skeledrew]

We don't know that for sure though. All it takes is a single seed in an ideal condition. And that condition could've probably happened in a way that the pear wouldn't have the advantage that's caused some to name it "invasive".

But also, left alone, nature tends to rebalance on its own. Any species with a dominant advantage will eventually lose that advantage, given a few generations. Well, except for humans, who continually fight the natural rebalancing, and are only succeeding in increasingly destroying that which sustains life on this planet.

[pessimizer]

> Nature taking its course

Lawns and backyards.

[skeledrew]

Unnaturally created and maintained.