[leetharris]

I owned one and this article is perfectly accurate. This guy hit the nail on the head on everything.

Passthrough is massively oversold, even if it's technically impressive. They set expectations way too high.

The comfort is the #1 reason I don't own a Vision Pro anymore. I feel exactly as the author put it, "relieved," when I take it off.

I feel significantly more disconnected from my family when I have it on because I have no easy way to share my content with them. A massively improved guest mode, better casting, or something else would go a long way here.

The eye tracking + tap is incredible, but Apple tried to shoehorn this into everything. It should have been the primary mode of interaction with a detailed/precision interaction when needed. Eye tracking + tap is simply not good enough for power user use cases. It was such a relief to go back to my Quest after Vision Pro because the controllers were so precise and easy to use.

And finally, I'll mention that the OS + standardization of UX is HUGE. The Quest feels like a crappy Chinese clone in comparison. Every single window has a completely different way of moving, adjusting, etc. Sometimes you click in the center, sometimes you click under, sometimes you can't move it at all. On the Vision Pro, everything is standardized. I'd love to see Meta fix this.

[throwup238]

> I feel significantly more disconnected from my family when I have it on because I have no easy way to share my content with them. A massively improved guest mode, better casting, or something else would go a long way here.

This whole paragraph sounds downright dystopian.

“A family that shares content together, stays together”

[dkersten]

If I had a family member who insisted on wearing a headset all the time I’d probably be calling them a glasshole (Vision Pro is so much more obnoxious than Google glass ever was)

[junon]

Ehhh idk. I actually knew one of the famous glassholes (one of the guys interviewed in the infamous glassholes documentary). He was a well known nuisance outside of the Google glass thing, to boot.

He was taking pictures of people at clubs and whatnot and it wasn't obvious he was doing that because the glass was discreet.

With the vision pro you're basically screaming "I have cameras pointed at you, at my surroundings, at my eyes and at my crotch" without any ambiguity.

[samplatt]

You're right that we need to be aware of this because we can and WILL be exploited via these avenues, but for now at least, it's kinda the other way around - a family that stays together naturally wants to share content with each other.

"Hey, let's play a game!" What sort of game? "One we can play together" Welp looks like this multi-thousand-$$ toy is out then, lets go back to traditional games.

[throwup238]

> a family that stays together naturally wants to share content with each other.

“Content” is the worst euphemism I’ve ever heard. You have been fully exploited.

Real families want to share quality family time in the real world, not “content”

[spike021]

> Real families want to share quality family time in the real world, not “content”

You've never gone on a nice trip and then when back home with relatives streamed photos/video of that trip to a TV to share?

[JohnFen]

I've never done this, nor has any of my friends or family. Not attaching any sort of value judgement to this one way or another, but just saying that it isn't a universally common sort of activity.

[newaccount74]

Showing photos and videos to friends and family is a pretty common thing to do?

In the 90ies most people just passed prints around, or if it was pictures of a special occasion people would pass a photo album around. The more elaborate version would be inviting people to look at slides on a projector.

Nowadays most people show photos and videos on their mobile phone, and if you are fancy you put them on a TV with Airplay or Chromecast (or whatever the Android version is called).

[samplatt]

Okay: "naturally wants to share experiences with each other." Or is that too web 1.0?

VR/AR has the capacity to bridge technology platforms that have hitherto been kept separate, sometimes by cultural forces, and sometimes for good reason. Words like 'content' are ripe for misinterpretation - I'd be more careful about assuming too much about strangers on the internet, mate.

To be fair, I should have been less vague, especially on a thread about an apple product where people tend to get a bit evangelical.

[mckn1ght]

> You have been fully exploited.

That's a bit harsh. "Content" can mean a wide variety of things, and smartphones/tablets are capable of displaying such a wide variety of things.

We strive to curtail our own usage of devices around our young daughter at home. The extent of her screen time is maybe 1-2 movie nights per month.

But she and I do around 5-10 minutes of Duolingo/Pimsleur every day. She asks every morning if we're going to "do French" today (even though we switched to Hungarian for most of this year).

Are we fully exploited?

[microtonal]

Once a SV PR department is done with it, I’m sure that families will not share ‘content’ but ‘experiences’.

[atoav]

You can always go out and play with a stick and a rock. If you live somewhere where there is a stick and a rock.

[archagon]

I also feel like the lack of precise/physical controls is going to make gaming a non-starter. Which is really the main reason I’m excited about VR in the first place.

[causi]

Owning a Rift and a Quest 2 has pretty much convinced me I'll never be into VR. VR makes for incredible immersion but, for me, terrible gaming. Instead of putting the cool stuff from games into reality, it puts the worst parts of reality into my games. Instead of walking and crouching with a touch of a finger, now I have to walk and crouch. To look behind me I have to actually turn around. Instead of everything being in focus all the time, I have to look at things one by one. Not for me.

[imzadi]

I'm a bit of a VR enthusiast. I have 8 headsets (DK1, Quest 1, Quest 2, Oculus Go, Vive Pro 2, HP Reverb G2, Pico 4, Pimax Crystal). I will easily spend 2 - 6 hours a day in VR. That said, I just refuse to play any game with a stupid movement system. If I can't use my control to move around, I am not going to play the game. It's great to have those options for people who want them, but when a game tries to force me to walk in my personal space or physically turn, they are going to lose me. I don't have the balance to do that stuff.

[shrubble]

Is there anything good enough to substitute for a 1080p monitor for a lengthy period of time?

[imzadi]

The Pico 4 is actually a really good headset. It's not officially released in the US market, but can be imported from EU sellers, which is how I got mine. The resolution is pretty good and good enough to replace a monitor, imo. I've used it with the Immersed app and liked it. It's also really small and light compared to other headsets.

The Pimax Crystal has great resolution and virtually no glare, but it is too heavy and bulky to wear for extended periods of time.

At work, I have setup and support the Meta Quest 3. It's also a good headset, but I don't feel compelled to get one at all. The visuals comfort are on par with the Pico 4, but the Pico 4 is cheaper and not dragged down by the Meta software. Though, it should be noted that I use it for PCVR almost exclusively with Virtual Desktop.

[tcmart14]

I would assume someone could easily integrate a controller for their app using the Game Controller framework [1]. So its not impossible. The only complaint I could see is there not being a standardize visionOS physical controller. But I assume that you could assume the PlayStation DualSense or SteelSeries Nimbus+[2] is probably what you should target controls for.

[1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/gamecontroller/

[2] https://www.apple.com/shop/smart-home/accessories/gaming

[archagon]

Unfortunately, a gamepad is just not sufficient for immersive VR gaming: you need something like the Meta Quest controller. And the lack of a first-party controller means that games will be forced to build sub-par gesture based controls as the default, with physical controls as an afterthought. (We already saw this play out with the Apple TV.)

As a result, I highly doubt we'll get anything as advanced as Half-Life: Alyx on the platform.

[slg]

>As a result, I highly doubt we'll get anything as advanced as Half-Life: Alyx on the platform.

How many years of VR gaming on how many other devices have produced how many Half-Life: Alyxs? And even Alyx was basically a vanity experiment designed to sell hardware. There simply isn't much content that has justified the medium yet. At a certain point I wonder if the future of VR gaming is just providing the biggest screen in your house to play your traditional games with a Bluetooth controller.

[zamalek]

Off the top of my head:

* Universe Sandbox was the first pinaccle I experienced and still hasn't been topped in its own curious way. It demonstrated at the very beginning where VR UX could go, and that has nothing to do with stupid floating 2D planes.

* RecRoom "dungeons" are the best collaborative gameplay that I have experienced.

* No Man's Sky.

* Alyx.

[Terretta]

> a gamepad is just not sufficient for immersive VR gaming

This seems strange, since so many folks love giant ultrawide screens for immersion whether playing console or PC and whether with controller or mouse+keyboard. They carry on how much immersion there is, and it's not nearly as visually immersed. So it seems less likely it's about the controller.

If they find the ultrawide immersive, and the controller is fine, why not AVP, since the "look around" control is just turn your head?

Do you not feel immersed when driving a car? You have fewer controls, and can't run around, you just sit there in your car seat, turn the wheel, turn your head, and gas and brake.

[wlesieutre]

It’s like how physically interactive Wii Sports felt 18 years ago, but even more so.

Could you play have played a bowling game with a gamepad instead? Sure. But then it doesn’t feel at all like bowling, it feels like playing a bowling video game.

The interaction through VR game controllers takes that concept much further, playing Walkabout Mini Golf or Eleven Table Tennis feels practically like the real thing. Playing those games with thumb sticks and buttons would be basically pointless.

[throwanem]

It's funny you mention that metaphor in particular: driving a car does feel less immersive to me than walking. When I drive, I'm in the car; when I walk, I'm in the world.

[thenthenthen]

Totally, the small windows, soundproofing and not to forget electric drive and assistance of modern cars makes driving a rather surreal experience.

[petters]

Motorcycles are much more immersive and ironically I think that they feel safer for that reason.

[archagon]

For sims, it works well enough. But it won't work for something like a shooter, or a Beat Saber equivalent.

[whywhywhywhy]

But then you’re limiting the reach of your app even further to tiny % of people who have Vision Pro but also the tiny % who have the controller you designed it for.

Really vr games don’t shine with a traditional controller it’s actually the precision hand tracking from controllers not the 3d that makes them good. So you’d have to build for something specific then hope enough people own both to make you money.

[petesergeant]

> I owned one and this article is perfectly accurate. This guy hit the nail on the head on everything.

Strangely enough, I don't own one, but just assumed this guy had hit the nail on the head with everything. Everything else I've read felt like it was pushing an agenda, this guy's writing just seemed like it was accurately weighing the pros and cons as he saw them.

[nox101]

What is the UX experience for basic web HTML input elements? (text/date/range/slider/select/...) Have they been changed for visionOS?

How about flutter apps like https://flutter.github.io/samples/web/material_3_demo/

I've been complaining that flutter is the next flash, meaning that by rendering their own UX instead of using the platform's they're basically making dead end apps. They'll claim devs just need to reship their apps with the latest version but that's means all old flutter apps are abandonware. It also ignores that the next platform they'll run into the same problem again.

[spr-alex]

agree very much here. apple - we're missing many intuitive gestures. lets ditch the cursor paradigm eye tracking is set to work on. in the real world we have proprioception that lets us accurately interact with the environment without looking at what we're doing.

[LordDragonfang]

>Passthrough is massively oversold, even if it's technically impressive. They set expectations way too high.

As a Vision Pro owner, kinda, but kinda not?

I have a really low-power glasses prescription (-1/-1.5) and I've come to the conclusion that everyone saying this has the priviledge of being born with perfect (irl) vision. It's intentionally a little bit out of focus to obscure the screen door effect, which I understand might be disorienting to people who've never had to wear glasses.

But taking that into account, it's incredibly clear. If you've used any other pass through, it's night and day. I will frequently put on my headset having forgotten that the cover is on, and when I take it off my brain genuinely reads that as uncovering a transparent lens. The slightly reduced HDR, slight desaturation, and almost imperceptible visual snow all added up still don't detract enough from that to say it is not close to "lifelike".

It's not perfect, but it's incredibly close - and probably better than a good chunk of the population's uncorrected vision.

I mean, the comparison images in the article almost make the point for me. The left image, when adjusted for brightness/contrast (which the human vision system does automatically absent other stimulus, e.g. when all you can see is the headset) has a greater resemblance to what a cloudy day looks like IRL compared to the completely oversaturated, amateurly HDR'd image on the right.

[joshstrange]

I’m -3.25 (or right around there) and I found the AVP pass through lackluster. Better than anything else I’d tried but I completely agree with the “oversold” point. The quality just isn’t all the way there yet and the blur when moving isn’t great.

[gamblor956]

The passthrough camera has fairly low resolution compared to the inner displays, so if it looks "lifelike" to you, it's probably time to consider getting your glass prescription updated. Comparing the VP to the Quest 3, it's a significant upgrade (and should be, for the 7x price), but neither of them is anywhere close to "lifelike."

[filleduchaos]

That...isn't even how myopia works. Do people actually think us short-sighted people see the world in 480p or what?

[theshackleford]

I mean I’ve got myopia and that’s not far off. I’m -6.75 in each eye. I’d say it’s more like 240p stretched over a giant display. At least in my case without glasse, I just see blobs of moving colour, not unlike very heavy compression/artifcating. I can make out people, vehicles etc, but I couldn’t tell one individual or vehicle from another. Just the shapes.

[filleduchaos]

I'm not as short-sighted (-3 in each, plus astigmatism of around 2.5 in my left eye) but to me there is a clear difference between the lack of focus that I have without my glasses and low resolution videos viewed with corrected vision. There's even a clear difference between both of those and e.g. reduced visibility from fog or haze.

And this isn't just down to videos being shown on a screen - just looking at digital photos with a critical eye also shows the difference between an out-of-focus shot (which approximates myopia) and a shot that's simply taken with a low-res sensor. One of the standout points is the way that lights look - low-res but in-focus shots don't have the "bokeh" effect.

[t888]

It’s not lifelike if you critique it, and especially if you look at detailed scenes with some distance to them - e.g, if I look at trees in the street outside my front window.

However in my living room during daylight, if I’m using the Vision Pro normally - i.e. interacting with apps, and not just staring at real world scenes to critique passthrough, then it easily creates the illusion that the content is in the room, and it doesn’t feel like I’m looking through a device. It has a long way to go, but it’s definitely capable of creating the illusion.

[LordDragonfang]

So, to gather anecdata, a question to you: do you wear corrective lenses or contacts in your day-to-day life?

I never said I couldn't tell the difference between my corrected vision and the vision pro. But it's probably close to as clear as my uncorrected vision, which is how I experience life the majority of time. In a very real way, it is lifelike. My reaction to the cover coming off is "oh, I don't have my glasses on" not "oh, I'm looking at a screen". In no world would I have the same reaction to the passthrough on any other VR headset I own.

The latency, lack of screen door, minimization of warping artifacts, and yes, even the resolution, are at a place where someone who doesn't have the privilege of 24/7 perfect vision could easily mistake it at first glance. There's lots of places to improve (mostly the blur when moving your head), but we're at the point where "not literally indistinguishable" is the point of contention.

Also, keep in mind "lifelike" has never even meant "literally undisguisable" in the first place. People have been using it to describe graphics since the PS1, so I think it's fair to use to describe something that looks more like life than the majority of even present-day "realistic" 3D games.

[anon373839]

> my uncorrected vision, which is how I experience life the majority of time

Is this common? I have myopia and I wear my contacts 100% of my waking hours. I can’t tolerate being without them, and can’t really tolerate glasses either.

[LordDragonfang]

My prescription is low enough that I don't need my glasses for close-up things like my own computer monitor (it actually gives me a little bit of eyestrain). And since I can walk around inside just fine without them, I usually don't bother putting them on when I'm at home unless I'm watching TV, and don't bother wearing them in the office if I'm not in a (face to face) meeting where I need to see someone else's screen.