[harimau777]

Something that I've suspected is that "poverty mentality" may not be the full picture.

It seems to me that one aspect of "poverty mentality" is a refusal to go outside of "the rules" even when doing so would clearly be within the socially acceptable gray area. I'm not talking about someone with privilege selfishly believing that the rules don't apply to them. I mean minor things like putting up a lost cat flier without a permit, ducking into a random restaurant and asking if they have napkins to clean up a spill, or teaching a small yoga class in a public park without a permit. The fear seems to be that if those in authority are given any opportunity to crack down or refuse a request then they will do so.

What I have noticed is that it actually does seem like those in authority are more strict with them than they are for me (note that in this case I'm talking about people who are the same race and in some cases the same gender as me).

I've come to suspect that in addition to "poverty mindset", there may also be some sort of unconscious body language or other indicators that allow people to subconsciously pickup that someone comes from poverty. I don't have any proof of this, it's just something that I've suspected. So I don't know if there would be any value in trying to look at any of these potential cues?

[ToValueFunfetti]

That's a surprising claim to me. I live in a fairly poor area and people seem very willing to throw litter out of their cars, blast bass so loud it shakes my house, do drugs in public view, or commit flagrant traffic/parking violations (no value judgments here, just being objective) compared to other places I've lived.

It is also trivially true that poor people are more likely to commit crimes (source[1] if needed, though). Of course, that is likely biased by the selective enforcement you call out.

Perhaps the two can be rectified as a bimodal distribution: Poor people are either dramatically more or dramatically less likely to commit crimes based on how they respond to their environment. Say poor people are more likely to be exposed to crime and thus presented with the choice, and you can respond to high scrutiny by treading carefully or just giving up on it and doing whatever ("They'll punish me regardless, may as well get something out of it.").

Because getting convicted of a given crime is relatively unlikely to begin with, the low crime group doesn't substantively reduce the conviction rate but the high crime group drives it up dramatically. And I am more able to notice the guy blasting bass at 80 mph than the hundreds who quietly pass by.

[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4180846/

[TeaDrunk]

> I live in a fairly poor area and people seem very willing to throw litter out of their cars, blast bass so loud it shakes my house, do drugs in public view, or commit flagrant traffic/parking violations (no value judgments here, just being objective) compared to other places I've lived.

I used to live in wealthy frathouse neighborhoods and they do the same shit there too. They just have the money to hire cleaners after they trash houses, or collectively buy summer vacation trips to other countries to do it.

[ToValueFunfetti]

My previous apartments were mostly very near a campus, so that's more or less my point of comparison. I definitely was more upset at entitled college kids than I am about my neighbors today (who I mostly can excuse), but I do think there was a lot less of it.

The bass issue for example has gone from 1-2 times a week to 2-3 times a day, and this is a much lower traffic area. A lot fewer loud parties here, but I think that's mostly a function of age. And yeah, they'd trash their own houses/lawns, but I'm not sure that's even illegal. Here I pick up a small bag of trash from my own property whenever I mow the lawn; nobody once littered in my lawn by campus (I do have about 4x the space where that could happen now).

This is all anecdotal, my experience certainly doesn't override yours. I'd love to see some data, but I can't seem to find anything.

[marcosdumay]

> What I have noticed is that it actually does seem like those in authority are more strict with them than they are for me

Oh, people don't develop fear of authority for no reason. It's way more likely that you do not see the times society is more strict with them.

[harimau777]

Reading what I originally wrote again, I didn't explain that I was talking about situations where on the surface at least, it would seem that those in authority wouldn't be able to tell that they were poor. Which is why I suspect that there might be some sort of more subtle tell that people are responding to.

[marcosdumay]

That's expected.

What you aren't internalizing is that fear of authority is a feeling. And feelings aren't very contextual or rational. People learn them and react with them on the most diverse situations.

[sublinear]

> one aspect of "poverty mentality" is a refusal to go outside of "the rules" ... The fear seems to be that if those in authority are given any opportunity to crack down or refuse a request then they will do so.

The fear is still valid regardless of their race, ethnicity, gender, etc. if they didn't move away from the poverty. Most do move away, but not all can.

I grew up poor in a poor place, but had some "rich" friends whose future was running the family business or otherwise maintaining regionally dependent wealth. If they cashed out they'd be betraying another set of "rules": their family. Their day-to-day quality of life is still significantly worse than anyone upper middle class in a major metro area suburb. They have to deal with high property crime, corrupt local government, etc. Having to hide your wealth and not many peers can be just as stressful as being poor in the first place.

[bjornsing]

I think the way we relate to authority is a very central part of socialization for humans. We get it from our parents, and to some extent our peers. Best way to change it as a grownup is probably therapy.

[zero_k]

Wow, yes, so true! I didn't realize how powerful this kind of fear is. You put it quite well. I'll now have to think about this...