[es7]

I'm not really clear on the asbestos risk. Everything I've read and heard seems to indicate that the panic around asbestos might be overblown. Asbestos is unsafe but it is a matter of degrees. In certain cases like loose-fill insulation or certain situations where workers grind/cut asbestos regularly, it seems to cause a meaningful level of risk. Especially for those who are already smokers.

But having gone through a remodel in a house with asbestos, I have been blown away at the extreme level of regulations, the meticulous procedures that remediation companies have to follow, the tens-of-thousands spent on remediation and repeated testing, and the tens-of-millions being thrown around in courts whenever Asbestos comes up.

As best as I can tell, the risk is close to zero for minor and occasional exposure in otherwise healthy individuals. I'm open to seeing hard evidence to convince me otherwise.

[nostrademons]

> As best as I can tell, the risk is close to zero for minor and occasional exposure in otherwise healthy individuals. I'm open to seeing hard evidence to convince me otherwise.

Asbestos is interesting in that the mechanism of carcinogenicity is very well-studied and well-understood. The fibers get into the lungs; the body can not get them out of the lungs; they cause persistent cell-damage as they mechanically rupture lung cells; and then the resulting chronic inflammation eventually causes cancer.

Because it's so well understood, we also know how to protect against asbestos. If the fibers are never airborn, they can't get into the lungs. If you're wearing an N95 mask or respirator, they can't get into the lungs. If you can cough them out in the moment, they don't stay in the lungs. Once they're in the lungs, you're pretty well screwed. It's a sliding scale of how screwed, with more exposure causing more cancer risk, but the fibers are not coming out and will continue rolling cancer dice while they're in there.

Having asbestos in your walls or ductwork is not going to kill you - the asbestos fibers aren't in the air. Doing a DIY reno on your asbestos-containing walls absolutely can kill you, and there have been cases of mesothelioma linked exactly to that.

[adriand]

> the fibers are not coming out and will continue rolling cancer dice while they're in there

This is rather alarmist. The truth is more nuanced. This resource [1] lists a variety of biological mechanisms that work to remove asbestos fibers from the lungs beyond simply coughing them out, such as via "alveolar macrophages".

> Doing a DIY reno on your asbestos-containing walls absolutely can kill you

This is true, but if this made any readers anxious, it's important to note that "light, short-term exposure rarely causes disease" and that it is "not uncommon for homeowners to do a renovation and then realize afterward that they disturbed asbestos products. Fortunately, the risk from this is low." [2]

My advice is that if you are going to renovate your home, unless it is quite new and you have good reason to believe there is no risk of asbestos contamination, you should assume that materials like tiles, plaster, drywall, insulation, etc., may contain asbestos, and get them tested before commencing. However, if you have renovated in the past and are anxious about exposure, chill out. You can't change anything now, and unless you were renovating regularly, you'll very likely be fine.

Remember that if you live in a rural area, you can be exposed to asbestos via natural weathering of rock. If you live in an urban area, you have likely been exposed to asbestos via construction and demolition work taking place nearby.

[1] https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/asbestos/biological_fate_of_a...

[2] https://www.asbestos.com/exposure/short-term/

[ClumsyPilot]

> If you're wearing an N95 mask or respirator, they can't get into the lungs

A random N95 mask is not gonna save a random Joe from asbestos. If you study how masks and respirators work, you will find that you need to be clean-shaven, the respirator must match the shape of your face and have a good seal, etc. People who work with hazardous substances spend a good amount of time on this.

NHS had to discard huge number of masks during COVID because they weren't the right shape and weren't forming a seal.

In some cases, that's good enough - general dust, woodcutting, etc. For highly toxic substances, it won't save you.

[anonymousiam]

Lots of non-banned substances are more dangerous to breathe than asbestos. I understand the risks because I spent 20 years working in a building containing asbestos, and received annual notifications and warnings. It's been banned for use in construction for over 30 years, so I don't see how the EPA ban will make much difference.

[epicureanideal]

Is there any way to wash them out of the lungs?

At the same time could smokers get a lung cleaning treatment?

[jijijijij]

No. Because of their needle shape, they wander deep into the tissue. The notoriously associated cancer is found in the mesothelium, a layer around the lungs.

[thereisnospork]

It probably could[0] be done, but good luck getting an FDA approval.

[0]Speaking of smokers specifically, it is entirely possible to 'breathe' oxygenated liquid per fluorocarbons ('PFAS') which would very likely dissolve and 'wash out' tar from the lungs.

[AlexandrB]

It's also under-appreciated how risky many common substances are when ground or cut. Cutting concrete, for example, can cause silicosis of the lungs[1] if precautions aren't taken. Wood dust is also potentially carcinogenic[2].

Then there's stuff like metal fume fever[3], which seems to be temporary but who knows what long term effects we'll discover in the future.

[1] https://www.elcosh.org/document/1930/d000852/Dry+Cutting+%25...

[2] https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/wood_dust.html

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever

[nostrademons]

The general rule of thumb should be "don't breathe dust", not regulating specific types of dust. Almost all forms of dust are bad for you.

[sidewndr46]

Berylliosis is the truly unexpected one for me. Something as harmless looking as a piece of ceramic can basically wipe out your lungs

[nxobject]

Quartz has a similar effect to concrete, too.

[timr]

> Everything I've read and heard seems to indicate that the panic around asbestos might be overblown. Asbestos is unsafe but it is a matter of degrees.

Oh definitely. Like, if you ask the EPA, they'll tell you that there's "no safe level of exposure"...which is true at a population level (and completely understandable for a regulatory body to say), but terrorizes the kind of people who panic at the idea of chemicals.

You don't want to be breathing the stuff when it's floating in the air, but people absolutely freak out over the idea of being near anything containing asbestos, even if the stuff is sealed in plastic or ceramic -- tons of old floor tiles contained it, for example. That's pretty obviously harmless, unless you grind it up and aerosolize it, but it triggers the same level of response as fraying asbestos pipe insulation.

[cmrdporcupine]

Part of what we're dealing with here is that asbestos present in a home harms not only your health but... potentially the perceived $$ value of your home. Your biggest financial investment.

[timr]

I'm not just talking about homes. Plenty of schools, museums and other public places spend huge amounts of money removing otherwise undisturbed asbestos.

That said, it's more-or-less the same thing with old homes -- the "we found asbestos; give us a discount" thing is not really about rational perceptions of risk. If you buy an old home, you basically have to assume that it's going to have asbestos in it.

[hedora]

Banning asbestos prevents people from using asbestos in new houses / remodels. We bought a house, and only later found out that the materials used in its post-2000 remodel contained asbestos.

[sidewndr46]

Believe it or not, that isn't even correct. The original ban allowed the usage of existing stocks of materials in all forms of construction until depleted. There is no tracking of all materials containing asbestos that were ever imported. Somewhere today there are still new builds going in with asbestos in them as a result.

[timr]

Yeah, I get it. I'm not making an argument about banning the stuff in new construction.

[cmrdporcupine]

> spend huge amounts of money removing otherwise undisturbed asbestos.

I mean, the legitimate concern here is that someone accidentally disturbs it, and in a stupid way, and now your kids are exposed.

Even floor tiles, I assume if you cut into them with the wrong kind of saw in the wrong conditions could be spreading fine particles. Maybe.

In any case, people don't behave rationally around risk. Nor do they understand statistics (evidence: lottery tickets get sold). But at the same time, overall it doesn't really hurt to get rid of this stuff, if done properly.

[Scarblac]

My dad died of it some years ago, and we never knew where his lungs came into contact with the stuff. He never worked in construction, but sometimes near it. There is typically about 30 years between the contact with asbestos and getting ill.

It's a very depressing diagnosis, there is no remedy and you just get gradually worse over a year or so until you die.

[uptown]

I’m very sorry about your dad and how his death must have pained your family.

My dad also died from asbestos exposure leading to mesothelioma. His final months were a lot like what you described.

[jimjimjim]

It always amazes me that for every type of potentially hazardous substance or situation there will be people state 'Everything I've read' or 'From my own research' and the downplay or dismiss the concern.

There are a LOT of people that have worked with asbestos that went on to develop severe lung disease.

[StefanBatory]

I feel very disappointed in many of people commenting here. Because it looks like - as long as I'm not the one hurt, who cares that it's their health and life at risk.

As long as I can have my stuff cheap.

:(

[throwitaway222]

In 100 years I bet those same stringent policies will exist for fiberglass batt

[rayiner]

Probably not. Fiberglass has been studied for carcinogenicity specifically based on the experience with asbestos: https://connect.mayoclinic.org/discussion/fiberglass-insulat... ("Fibers deposited in the deepest parts of the lungs where gas exchange occurs are removed more slowly by special cells called macrophages. Macrophages can engulf the fibers and move them to the mucous layer and the larynx where they can be swallowed. Swallowed fibers and macrophages are excreted in the feces within a few days.

Synthetic vitreous fibers deposited in the gas exchange area of the lungs also slowly dissolve in lung fluid. Fibers that are partially dissolved in lung fluid are more easily broken into shorter fibers. Shorter fibers are more easily engulfed by macrophages and removed from the lung than long fibers.").

We also have been unable to find clear evidence of health harms in longitudinal studies of fiberglass manufacturing workers: https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp161-c2.pdf ("Studies of workers predominantly involved in the manufacture of fibrous glass, rock wools, or slag wools have focused on the prevalence of respiratory symptoms through the administration of questionnaires, pulmonary function testing, and chest x-ray examinations. In general, these studies reported no consistent evidence for increased prevalence of adverse respiratory symptoms, abnormal pulmonary functions, or chest x-ray abnormalities; however, one study reported altered pulmonary function (decreased forced expiratory volume in 1 second) in a group of Danish insulation workers compared with a group of bus drivers.").

[throwup238]

They'll exist for a lot of nanotech like carbon nanotubes too. Pretty much any rigid nanostructure has potential for same effect on the lungs as asbestos since it's caused by mechanical damage.

[observationist]

Asbestos repeats the injury, endlessly, with near immunity to any chemical decomposition. Mechanical decomposition just makes it more dangerous, as it cleaves into sharper, tinier needle like structures. Other nanostructures aren't nearly as chemically stable, especially inside the body, and can be metabolized or expelled from the body through natural processes. Asbestos sticks, shatters, and all the jagged little needle pieces stick where they are.

Fiberglass, dust, and so forth can be expelled by the body and don't represent nearly the same level of harm as asbestos. The material's mechanical and chemical properties make a huge difference in how dangerous they are. Asbestos is chemically robust and mechanically fragile in a way that makes it more dangerous and sticky over time.

A nanotube that damages a few cells, then gets metabolized or oxidizes, and then expelled, is far different from a slowly exploding needle bomb that will reside in your body for decades, endlessly killing the cells it contacts, resulting in infections, inflammation, cancer, and sometimes even dead septic chunks of tissue.

Asbestos is, on balance, a terrible, horrible thing, and the harm it does can't be justified by the potential for good uses. Fiberglass insulation or carbon nanotubes aren't good for your lungs, but the dangers they pose can be reasonably considered against their benefits. these materials present a very different scale and magnitude of harm, especially over time.

[jjtheblunt]

It depends on bioaccumulating, i’ve read. Inert things can’t have bonds broken by macrophages, etc, labeling them with an ion. Carbon chains i supposemight break down biologically , but maybe won’t.

[edflsafoiewq]

From your mouth to God's ear.

[jghn]

Also things like the asbestos house siding and floor tiles that were ubiquitous for a while. If you have an older house there's a decent chance you either have it or it's lurking underneath what you do have when people just covered it up.

Getting rid of it is a huge hassle because it qualifies for full asbestos remediation. But yet it's nowhere near the danger to get rid of than the loose-fill insulation.

[idiotsecant]

It takes one asbestos exposure to get a fiber hooked in your lung. It's worth some hassle. It's not just about you, but also the people who handle it downstream in the waste disposal pipeline, people who are involved in unrelated construction, etc. Asbestos killed a lot of people.

[RcouF1uZ4gsC]

Yep, and sometimes asbestos exposure is better than being burned alive.

Life is a matter of trade offs.

We may have better trade offs now with advances in material science, but all those uses of asbestos were not made by mustache twirling villains.