[morsch]

I bought -- full price, retail -- a midrange Samsung phone for a relative recently. The amount of bloatware was incredible. Various social networks and shopping apps were preinstalled. In addition to all the Samsung apps that more or less duplicate the Google stack, poorly. The entire setup process was full of dark patterns designed to extract as much data from you as possible. No way a regular person gets through that without missing something.

[autoexec]

The first time I had a samsung phone I noticed after about two weeks that every single word I typed into any application was being collected and sent to a third party whose privacy policy said it was used to collect data about my interests, my social life, to make guesses about my intelligence level and education, and that the data would be sold for "market research" among other things.

No user would ever suspect that the keyboard that came with their cell phone would be letting third parties read all their texts and emails to do those things. I'd assumed the keyboard was just a part of the OS. I only found out after I just happened to long press a key long enough to get an "about samsung keyboard" window and clicking around to find a privacy policy that said which company they were sending keystrokes to, and then reading that company's privacy policy.

I immediately found an open source keyboard to replace samsung's with. I'll say one thing for them, collecting everything everyone types into their devices meant that the samsung keyboard had really good spellchecking/predictive text capabilities. I'd never go back to using it, but there are times I wish the keyboard I replaced it with had a better spellchecker.

[bboygravity]

I find it mind blowing that:

1. Samsung is able to sell phones like that legally. 2. People are not in jail. 3. Governments somehow think it's ok that random companies can see everything their citizens do online. National security risks maybe? Trade secret issues?

It's almost suspicious to the point where I would start thinking those third party spy companies are possibly (US/5 eyes) government run?

[croes]

They don't care as long they are not Chinese.

[BLKNSLVR]

Like this: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-17/coalition-steps-up-ca...

[red-iron-pine]

> as long as they are South Korean

[out-of-ideas]

well websites ad-tech have been very able to track mouse movement/location, characters pressed (but not submitted) for 15 years at least; people are fine with this fact too (even if its 1 or 2 monopolies that phone home - and then share data lol)

android's have done similar for a very long time; customers have known about it, and turn a blind eye cuz its a new-shiney

[bboygravity]

Yes, but this "makes sense" considering that data is being sent to US companies that are basically integral part of the NSA by now.

So it makes sense from a US-gov perspective.

My point was that the Samsung spyware is sending data about (for example) US users to non-US companies and government (South Korea). I guess they're also integral part of the NSA by now. I have no other explanation :P

[cyanydeez]

capitalist democracy suverloence means getting around those pesky nonspying laws by just buying free market privacy invasion data.

[Terretta]

> mind blowing

“Mind blowing” is too strong a word when every thread about Apple on HN is demanding the iPhone be opened up to the same, taking away non-tech people’s choice to buy a bloat free and privacy defaulted device designed to stay that way even if people more technically savvy try to hook in.

It’s a fine line, of course, since the same non-tech people love IAP and ad-supported, as shown by the folks opting into ads on Hulu, Netflix, and Amazon Prime decades after similarly opting into ads on paid cable. So how to let users have ad-tech supported apps, without ending up like the Android ecosystem?

> legally … not in jail

Apple’s approach was a curated ecosystem, and the level of hate for it tells you app makers aren’t worried they should be in jail, they’re worried iOS users have that sweet sweet “wallet share”. HN’s EU DMA threads tell you plenty voices don’t just want what they do legal, they want it illegal to slow their roll.

PS. A lot of big data and big analytics cross pollinates with the US government. Three letter agencies even do VC deals.

[hparadiz]

Meanwhile I'm over here on a rooted android phone with no pre installed anything and a custom build of chromium that let's me have ublock origin on my phone. And RCS still works cause I guess they can't detect my old version of magisk.

[Terretta]

I run u-block origin on my iPhone with Kagi Orion. What's your point?

[hparadiz]

If it's not open source and chromium based why even bring it up?

[idle76]

I suspect it's npt just Samsung. Both google and microsoft (SwiftKey) does the same thing.

The worst part is that the most used national ID-function now stops you from using third party "approved" keyboard due to (misguided) security reasons. Both AnySoftKeyboard and AOSP keyboard is banned.

[pooper]

I wouldn't mind so much of Google/Microsoft/Samsung etc collected all data in house (including subcontractor companies who won't share this information with anyone else). If they kept it to themselves and said "just trust me, bro" to advertisers and kept my data to themselves I don't think I'd mind too much. But clearly that's not what happens here. They don't have nearly enough leverage against the advertisers.

[rightbyte]

Oh dear. I had disabled the Samsung keyboard for some other, but it seems it got reenabled again.

Maybe Google broke some API endpoint and the old keyboard didn't do the update grind.

No warning what so ever for their spyware taking over the keyboard functionally.

The need for some FOSS mobile is really over due by now.

Edit:

> I immediately found an open source keyboard to replace samsung's with

Which keyboard did you pick?

[andrepd]

The need for stronger legislation is overdue by now.

There is already a Foss mobile OS, it's called Android, or more specifically a distribution of it like LineageOS. But installing it is so difficult that only 1% of people have the technical know how to even attempt it, and it's getting more difficult as manufacturers introduce more and more hurdles in this process.

Which is all irrelevant anyway because the vast majority of people done even realise that everything they see, do, or type on their phones is reported to hundreds of companies, processed, and te-sold to thousands of companies all over the world.

We need regulation, full stop.

[throwaway11460]

It's regulation that forces people into Google and Apple ecosystems. Due to the payment security regulation I'm no longer able to use Android phone without Google services. SMS authentication is gone and I must have a bank app that must be installed from Google Play and uses Google services, also it detects root and stops working. Also, my bank used to have an app that completely bypassed Google Pay and worked even offline, like a card would - also canceled by the regulation.

[sham1]

The issue here isn't that there is regulation, it's that the regulation is badly written. For essential services such as banking and government stuff, you shouldn't be forced to rely on things like the Google Play Store and Apple stuff. This kind of stuff should work even on a debloated, degoogled phone. And the regulation must be improved, not thrown away.

Politicians of course have hard time with technology, so of course the regulation will be terrible for users, especially given the Big Tech lobbying, but still. We should do better.

[throwaway11460]

I'm a citizen of a small EU country that has voting power in the EU parliament near zero percent. They should do better, indeed, but what can I do. Much bigger fishes (even the banks) tried to convince the EU this is bad, it probably didn't even register on their radar. From my perspective, the regulation will always be bad, I can't do anything about it however hard I try, and so it shouldn't exist at all.

[Nullabillity]

Blocking root is definitely not an EU thing. BankID runs just fine on my Magisked phone, the only payment app I've had issues with was Google Pay.

[throwaway11460]

The regulation says that system integrity has to be verified. Some banks don't comply, but many (every one I use) do.

BTW magisk has a way to hide from the apps, so that might be the reason - that doesn't mean there isn't a problem with the regulation. But 2 of my 3 banks see through that. And one of them doesn't want to load on LineageOS even if it's not rooted because it's compiled in some dev mode that might allow something...

[bornfreddy]

> ...like LineageOS. But installing it is so difficult that only 1% of people have the technical know how to even attempt it...

Aside: there is also /e/OS (or MurenaOS - their naming is inconsistent). It is basically LineageOS that someone else installs for you so you get everything in a package [0].

They sell many phones, but it also runs nicely on Fairphones if you want a phone that you can repair (there is of course a compromise in price / performance there - depends on what matters to you the most).

Not affiliated, just a happy customer.

[0] https://e.foundation/

[theandrewbailey]

> It is basically LineageOS that someone else installs for you so you get everything in a package [0].

From what I read, Murena has a Google Play services reimplementation that isn't compatible with Lineage. Is that still the case?

[gitaarik]

What do you mean incompatible with LineageOS? In LineageOS you have to choice to install Google services like Google Play, or use the Aurora store.

In /e/os/ they have their own app store, App Lounge, with which you can install apps from Google Play through the Google Play API, similar to how the Aurora store does it. And you can also find open-source and PWA apps in it.

More info: https://doc.e.foundation/support-topics/app_lounge

[bornfreddy]

No idea about that, never heard anything similar.

I use fdroid and aurora store for installing apps, and push notifications work nicely using microg. Of course microg needs to connect to G servers (no way around it), but at least it works and there is no G app running on the phone.

[rightbyte]

Ye that is true.

As I see it the problem is with the phone manufacturers, only supporting Google.

Also, there is this problem with banks requiring signed OS:es for their silly app "security".

[bornfreddy]

There should be regulation that requires bank to offer a dedicated hardware OTP solution. Mobile apps security (banking or not) is abysmal anyway.

[rightbyte]

Ye it is strange that they abandon the simple, safe, cheap and idiot proof key device and go for some convoluted 2FA app that is run on the same device anyways.

[autoexec]

AnySoftKeyboard I've been using it ever since. It's got a lot of customization options and all the keys I need.

[rightbyte]

Thanks. It seems good.

I did the mistake of trying to find one via Google Play. It pushes so much malware to the top and wont allow you to filter the search. Discoverability there is zero.

It is like I always forgot I need to use fdroid and open Play by muscle memory.

[account42]

F-Droid tends to be a much better first stop if you are searching for non-hostile apps.

[9029]

Other alternatives: OpenBoard, FlorisBoard and HeliBoard (OpenBoard fork). Excluding FlorisBoard beta and HeliBoard, these also have quite infrequent releases like ASK.

[ac29]

Hmm, seems to not be available for my Pixel 6. The github looks very active but there hasnt been a release there (or Google Play or Fdroid) in over 2 years.

[hulitu]

> No user would ever suspect that the keyboard that came with their cell phone would be letting third parties read all their texts and emails

When we were young, this was called a keyloggger and one running was a sign that your computer was compromised.

I guess times have changed.

[ryandrake]

It still is compromised, but somehow we have normalized the idea of our own systems being compromised by our OS and system app developers.

[paulryanrogers]

Keyloggers are generally installed without consent. These keyboards are chosen, even if there terms are buried in a EULA it would take days to read.

[account42]

If you buy a laptop and the OEM has pre-installed a keylogger then it is still a keylogger. Most people don't choos their Android keyboard but use whatever is the default on the device they bought.

[HenryBemis]

NoRoot Firewall app (I'm not affiliated). I must have brought it up in every Android security related post in HN that I've came across.

I use it on all my Android devices. I block all traffic in most apps.

Some Android phones allow you to allow/block Data and/or WiFi separately. My Samsung 4G tablet doesn't allow me to switch off Data or WiFi for some apps, especially the system ones.

This is where NoRoot Firewall does all its good work. It has Global Block list (all ads/trackers go there) and for each app I individually block or allow certain IPs.

So if "Samsung Keyboard" app wants to send your typing home, you block Data/WiFi and leave it trying :)

[miroljub]

Can you please provide an installation link? Searching Google Play for it brings a lot of junk.

[andrepd]

Indeed. 99% of people will never even realise this is happening. Its crazy that "reading everything typed in a person's device without that person's awareness" is not something that has been legislated into oblivion.

[MaxBarraclough]

> I noticed after about two weeks that every single word I typed into any application was being collected and sent to a third party

How did you discover this? Has it been written about? Seems pretty scandalous.

[Charlie_32]

He goes on to explain it was in the keyboards About menu

[daghamm]

But there is no "privacy policy" on the Samsung keyboard about page.

The Samsungs privacy policy on the web states this:

Samsung Keyboard information: The words that you type when you enable “Predictive text”. This feature may be offered in connection with your Samsung account to synchronise the data for use on your other Samsung mobile devices. You can clear the data by going to the “Predictive text” settings.

Source: https://privacy.samsung.com/privacy/samsung

[autoexec]

I wouldn't doubt if it's changed a few times. The phone was a 2016 Galaxy J3 V. I no longer remember the name of the 3rd party they were using for predictive text at the time, but I know that in the past they've used SwiftKey and Grammarly

[MaxBarraclough]

Right you are, thanks.

[silversmith]

Could it be that it's a US-specific thing? My last three phones have been EU-sold Samsung S series, and the only things I'd consider "third party bloat" were pre-installed versions of Facebook and MS Office, both easily removable.

The Samsung replacement apps is down to personal preference, I find them easier to use than Google "originals".

Having casually interacted with phones from other brands, I consider Samsung among the best Android options as far as software and UX goes.

[morsch]

This was in Germany, so no. It's probably a midrange vs flagship thing, or it has gotten worse over time. I had an S10 and I don't remember it being so bad.

[almostnormal]

Enterprise edition, maybe? The keyboard itself does not seem to have a privacy policy ("about" shows intellectual properties and open source licenses), but the voice-input has. Third-party options are disabled by default.

But even with everything disabled (predictive text, spell checker (as may be obvious reading this), ...), it does cause network traffic.

Any login-data ever used can now be considered leaked. Great.

[numpad0]

I think it's sales channel dependent. Most carrier locked phones run carrier tailored OS that often include bloatware. Unlocked phones and/or phones sold in rights conscious regions would contain less.

I've used couple carrier branded phones, that `pm list` commands I posted in a different comment returns literally more than dozen of com.carrier.carriertrademark packages.

[morsch]

This was a retail (unlocked, non-carrier) phone in Europe. The sales channel was Amazon.

[rightbyte]

It is not an US thing. You got a "Bixby" button right? You can't remap it to something usefull. There should be a gesture to swipe up "Samsung Pay", etc.

[mFixman]

I was able to remap my Bixby button on my previous Samsung Phones. I usually put it to Google search and double click to the camera.

The newer phones (since ~2019) don't have Bixby, and Google Pay launches automatically when touching an NFC posnet.

[rightbyte]

You can if you accept the Samsung Bixby ToS. Or did you find a way around that?

[Flex247A]

I don't think it's US specific. Have faced a similar situation with the last two budget phones I bought in India.

[daniel_reetz]

I was furious when I found out that the default keyboard was infested with Grammarly, sending all my keystrokes without consent. Embarrassing for a $1200 flagship device.

[resource_waste]

This is a user/psychology problem.

No one in their right mind is suggesting Samsung. Heck, similar to Apple, you have swaths of people warning you about Samsung.

Samsung lives and dies off their huge marketing budget. Buying their phone is more of a psychology thing, than 'I did lots of research and I bought a high quality phone'.

[blfr]

I have a Samsung tablet (Galaxy Tab S9+) and I not only suggest but downright recommend it. Sure, right away I switched away from their default apps (launcher, notes, keyboard, etc) but it wasn't difficult.

Maybe they got me with their clever marketing but there doesn't seem to be competitive hardware in this class (fast, oled screen, 5g, overall build quality) available from another manufacturer.

[lozenge]

"No one in their right mind is suggesting Samsung. Heck, similar to Apple, you have swaths of people warning you about Samsung."

Apple and Samsung are the two most popular phone brands in the world, so it's not like "everybody knows not to use them" as you suggest. Actually, it's the complete opposite.

[TeMPOraL]

> Buying their phone is more of a psychology thing, than 'I did lots of research and I bought a high quality phone'.

For me it's more of "I'm no longer a kid so I don't have time to do lots of research". Samsung gets my money because their flagships are reliably good.

[naasking]

You can't spend a couple of days researching an essential, expensive device you're going to use for at least the next 2-3 years?

[throwaway11460]

What better hardware is there?

[naasking]

The hardware doesn't have to be better, could be equivalent but with less spyware or bloatware.

[1oooqooq]

"I'm no longer a kid. i just buy the one from the louder advertisement"

riiigth.

[geraldhh]

supposedly there will come a time after "no longer a kid" where due diligence is the among the top things worth doing

[TeMPOraL]

That's called retirement, where once again one has too much time and too little money.

[morsch]

I've had multiple Samsung Android devices before buying the midrange phone. The hardware, I found, was universally pretty good. They were one of the few manufacturers with a moderately sized flagship device (the new Pixel 8 also qualifies, which is great). I bought the midrange device because it was one of a few phones priced around 300 EUR with more than two or three years of updates.

[rchaud]

> Samsung lives and dies off their huge marketing budget.

This is a ridiculous take. Samsung is the entire reason Android didn't go the way of WebOS and Windows Phone.

Samsung had pressure-sensitive pen support on Android 5 years before iOS. Samsung DEX desktop environment can turn my phone into a proper work machine with just a USB-C display cable and a lapdock.

They've also had folding phones that can turn your phone into a tablet for several years, but I suppose we'll need to wait until 2030 when Apple launches it "the right way" to recognize it as an innovative form factor.

[geraldhh]

is dex actually useful?

it sounds fantastic hence i suppose there is a catch

[rchaud]

Yes it is. Floating window support makes a big difference for actual multitasking. In Dex you can also drag and drop files and images, which is not supported on Android. Considering that you can use Termux for web dev work, with a proper desktop environment, it becomes an actual computer instead of a locked down Google Docs type of device.

The catch with Dex is that it's only offered on the high end models: Galaxy S and Galaxy Z Fold series phones.

[tayo42]

What android brand are people going with? I thought Samsung was the biggest alternative to pixels

[magicalhippo]

I just bought a Motorola Moto G73 for $180, was 50% off as precious gen phones often are once the new comes out.

I got a Samsung S21 as my daily driver, but just wanted to check out a non-Samsung one over time.

So far I've been very impressed. It comes with Google apps for almost everything, the Moto specific stuff seems to be addons you can easily ignore.

Even came with a transparent protective case and audio jack.

Performance-wise I don't notice any difference in normal use, ie surfing, pictures and such. I don't play games though, there the S21 would blow it out of the water according to benchmarks.

Screen isn't quite as good, but close enough that I'd be happy with it as a primary phone.

Only thing that's a bit of a downer is they only do 3 years of security upgrades it seems. This is a bit short I feel.

Haven't tried any of the other brands over time in recent years, just adding my 2 cents.

[hughesjj]

I'm real tempted to go asus because of how good their other devices have been, will see what happens this time. Tired of my pixels constantly overheating when trying to take pictures after navigating to a place i want to take pictures with the 4a+5a. It's not just a bad phone, I've inevitably broken a screen or submerged one and had to replace it (apparently the ip68 isn't fool proof either..)

[resource_waste]

I'll be trying Asus since they have been the best when it comes to laptops. They also have lots of nice hardware like Aux ports.

Google Pixel 5a... The last Google product before they went full Apple.

[hughesjj]

Yup, there's a reason I'm still rocking it. Spec wise the 7a legitimately seems like a downgrade, and that's excluding the lack of headphone jack.

Other than the palm pre, my first smartphone was the galaxy nexus. It's still probably my favorite smartphone ever -- samsung hardware and google software both going full throttle really is the ideal, but for some reason they just don't play ball like that anymore.

[kirenida]

Check out the official Asus support forums before you buy.

I got a ZenFone8 when it came out and was very satisfied with it at the time. Then, a month later, posts started popping up with people reporting that their phones just randomly rebooting and bricking. I think there were a few hundred cases reported. To this day, there is no official response from Asus. I used to carry a backup phone with me every time I was away from home for longer than a day because I was afraid that my phone could die at any moment.

Also, every update seemed to introduce a new bug that only got fixed in a month or so with the next update. So we had broken face unlock for a month, broken Google Pay, broken notifications, among other things.

I haven't been following reports for the ZF9 or ZF10, but I think they had similar problems.

To top it all off, the official unlocker / root tool from ASUS has been disabled for over a year by now, and nobody knows when it will work again.

All in all, ASUS phones (at least the ZenFone line) do have great hardware, but official support is abysmal.

[spinal]

I'm clearly out of the loop... What do you mean by going full Apple?

[hparadiz]

I like Sony personally. They let you root.

[Semaphor]

Isn’t it more that Samsung, almost like apple, has great cameras? At least that’s what I often heard, I don’t go near flagship devices and root everything, so no personal experience.

[magicalhippo]

On my S21 it's an option. I can't recall turning it off, but it (and the other 3rd parties) are off. Perhaps I did so indirectly during initial setup.

[Symbiote]

My phone is Sony, and came pre installed with the Microsoft SwiftKey keyboard.

> First, please note that unless you have opted in to use a Microsoft SwiftKey Account on your Android device, all personal and language data generated by Microsoft SwiftKey is stored locally on your device and is never transferred.

I use it since it seamlessly swaps between enabled languages. I can write something like "meet me at Østerport Station" smoothly.

[onli]

Thanks, I was searching a keyboard that supports this properly for a while. Sadly no Foss option out there I know about :/

[coolg54321]

For me i've felt Samsung flagships have the best hardware, OneUI is very good compared those TouchWiz days. Then you have these bloatwares, first thing i do after getting any Samsung phone is doing `pm uninstall –k ––user 0 <bloatware.apps>` the linked tool does the same in a more user friendly way. One thing which that still blocks is i see you can't still remove some things like samsung account stuff, knox related stuff..etc, unless you flash a custom rom.

[microflash]

Samsung's SMS and Phone apps also upload user data to some shady data broker. Never buy Samsung. If by any stroke of misfortune you're forced to use it, debloat it as much as possible and use a firewall with internet connection disabled by default.

[l33tman]

Weird, I've had Samsungs flagship phones since 10 years back and never had any app on them that would be considered bloatware. There are a bunch of low-key note-taking apps etc that you can just ignore. Like another poster wrote, maybe it's a US-thing?

I actually use the Samsung web browser, because it allows ad-blocking out of the box, which Chrome on Android won't allow...

I've always used gboard as a keyboard (googles keyboard) and disabled the options to get really predictive and smart as I'm sure that makes it learn more closely and potentially send back data to google etc.

[Defletter]

> dark patterns designed to extract as much data from you as possible

It's insane how prevalent this is. The other day, I opened my calculator app and was met with a cookie banner (https://imgur.com/a/njJEiqY) - I uninstalled it on the spot out of sheer incredulity. The irony was that I originally installed Simple Calculator because it was simple and open source, so I presumed it would escape being a trojan horse for data collection. I guess not.

[Dudhbbh3343]

All the "Simple" apps were recently sold to a company that's apparently filling them with ads.

There's a group that forked the original open source apps:

https://github.com/orgs/FossifyOrg/repositories

[crtasm]

Wow, terrible news aboue the sale. I trust the copies I installed from f-droid won't be updated then.

[resource_waste]

I'm amazed people buy Samsung anything.

I only had 1 poor quality phone that cost $400, 10 years ago, and I was traumatized.

Occasionally I get a work Samsung phone and they really are the Apple of Android.

[gjm11]

"the Apple of Android" doesn't communicate anything to me other than that you dislike both Samsung and Apple; there are any number of things someone might dislike about Apple and so far as I know there isn't the sort of general consensus that would make such a phrase meaningful.

(I get the impression from your comments in this thread that maybe you're trying to create such a consensus or the illusion thereof, to get people used to seeing Apple casually referred to as an exemplar of some unstated kind of badness, or something like that. That sort of thing never works.)

[geraldhh]

imho the galaxy s4 mini was peak smartphone and thou the specs got better, the devices became increasingly bigger, heavier and less useful

[rchaud]

In Canada, Samsung phones sometimes have the Facebook app pre-installed, but that can be disabled, and won't show up again. Besides that, there's no bloatware on my phone other than the default Google apps (Google Meet, Google Pay etc).

[rapnie]

Bloatware, dark patterns, opted-in privacy invasions, and unavoidable privacy infringement.. I feel that Samsung is somewhere in the top of that spectrum. Which commodity Android device vendor has the least of that out-of-the-box?

[smellf]

Don't know how it compares to other manufacturers, but I've been pretty happy with the minimal BS that comes on my last two Sony phones.

[as1mov]

Asus? Though I'm not sure what's it sending in the background, but there was no legal jargon that I had to agree to, to use any of the apps. There were barely any custom apps, it pretty much relies on the stock Android apps.

[tilsammans]

Motorola

[bboygravity]

Unihertz

[xnx]

What are the reasons someone would want to buy any Android device beside a new or used Google Pixel?

[as1mov]

The bloat depends on the manufacturer. I've used a bunch of Android phones over the course of the last 15 years.

Sony Ericsson, Motorola - Pretty much stock Android. Though this was almost a decade ago, so not sure what's their state now.

Xiaomi - Absolutely filled with bloat, but really cheap + flagship specs. Easily fixed by flashing LineageOS.

Pixel 1st gen - No bloat, stock

Asus - My current phone. No bloat, though it has a lightweight skin + QoL stuff that I don't mind. I use it non-rooted + stock OS

[throwaway11460]

Don't want to give money to Google. And the hardware is sad compared to any recent Samsung flagship.

[morsch]

Combination of price and length of software support.

[npteljes]

Same experience with Samsung, only several years behind. The build quality is excellent, but the bundleware level is unbelievable. And the Samsung software seemed like a cheap bolted-on thing, on top of the perfectly good Android base.

[osmsucks]

I had a similarly appalling experience with a Samsung smartphone in, I think, 2012? Since then, I swore to never but anything Samsung again.

[yard2010]

Welcome to the future. It will be A cyberpunk dystopia just like in Cyberpunk 2077, but much sooner than 2077 IMHO.

[theandrewbailey]

We've been in the cyberpunk dystopia timeline for at least 10 years, maybe since the 90s.

[brookst]

My grandparents assured me we’ve been heading to dystopia since the invention of the television. Pretty sure their parents said the same thing about radio.

Presumably if you go far enough back you’d find warnings of dystopia applied to coming down from the trees.

[yard2010]

I am a grandparent myself I just don't have any grand children nor children just yet.