[tomrod]

> not the driving force behind the cost

Great. Socialize healthcare as the current non-single-payor market is forcing all sorts of market distortions in unrelated markets, AND fix the price fixing. Win win win.

ED: adding clarity for the call for socializing healthcare to dampen the massive price distortions in other markets.

[maxboone]

Healthcare is socialized in Europe and car insurance is still similarly priced (750 - 1500 per year, average in NL is 950 per car for only liability) mostly due to liability costs.

Required insurance covers € 7.5 million for personal injury, € 2.5 million for property damages.

Edit: P.S. I am in favor of single-payer healthcare, I just don't think that is the particular cause of expensive liability car insurance - rather personal injury and property damages would seem a larger driver to me.

[margalabargala]

This is interesting to me, an American unfamiliar with European systems.

> Required insurance covers € 7.5 million for personal injury

So in Europe (or at least some parts of Europe with otherwise socialized healthcare?), if someone is injured in a car accident, their medical bills are paid for by the insurance of the person who hit them, and not that country's single-payer system?

[orwin]

I think in my country, the single-payer system is still linked to an individual, by his social security number, so the culprit's insurance will "pay", even though what will be paid in healthcare will mostly be aestethics or other non-reimbursable. But mainly, it will pay for damages. In my country, f you are hurt in a car accident, you can be paid depending on your average salary and invalidity percentage, called an "invalidity rent". If docotr estimate you're invalid at 80%, you'll get paid 80% of your last month salary until they check on you again, then if you're 40% invalid its 40% of your salary (before the accident, even if it was years before)... up until you're fine. I think they have to give you at least 10% as long as you have sequellas, even minor ones. That, plus fixed damages (between 5k and like 40k).

It isn't perfect. It doesn't take into account missed career oportunities, inflation, the pain, or mental issues. But you can work besides the money they give you, and oftentime, you'll get the 10% for a long time, because paresthesias (whatever that thing is spelled in english) and small sequellas can stay for a long time (I know soemone who earn roughly 200€ per month, but she has trouble working in most kitchens now. She used the main check to get into academia though, and will probably end up with a master's degree for her troubles).

[lozenge]

I'm in the UK so we don't have "medical bills", the hospital doesn't have a billing system. There is one they dust off for international patients, and there is internal billing between regional and local organisations, but these bills aren't attached to individual patients. Edit: to be clear, this is unlike most European countries which still have multiple health insurance providers, but the health insurance is almost entirely government paid. The UK doesn't have health insurance, the government directly funds and runs the healthcare providers.

Still the insurance needs to cover loss of income, private care when NHS care is not fast enough, and "general damages" ("This covers the pain and suffering you have gone through and the [non financial] impact the injury or illness has had on your life")

[InsomniacL]

The injured party may decide to receive treatment though a private facilitate and recoup the cost from the insurer.

Regardless, if I loose my leg through the negligence of someone else, paying for the amputation isn't going to make me 'whole' again.

you'd have to put a literal price on my leg.

[tomrod]

I believe the phrase of art for this is value of statistical life.

[maxboone]

No, those are not billed to the person who caused the injury.

The personal injury part is meant to compensate for personal injury, such as "compensation" for becoming unable to work, or live the same way as before.

[Retric]

Car insurance in Europe averages ~1050 USD/year, US averages edit: $2,545 USD/year that's a huge difference IMO.

[maxboone]

Even when you put it next to the average (or better, modal) wages?

[Retric]

Yea, though wages and rates vary enough it's worth looking at individual countries.

England is an outlier. Average wage works out to 44,252.67 USD (£34,963/year) vs US is at 70,248.63.

Average car insurance in England is 710.06 USD (£561/year) vs 2,545 USD in United States.

[tomrod]

Yep. Median wage in Belgium is ~3.5k euro / month, equivalent to ~3.8k USD / month. Median US wage is ~4.9k/month, about 30% higher, certainly not 150% higher.

[orwin]

Belgium is definitely an outlier. It's 2k after taxes and contribution in France (so like 2.9k/3.1k if you are working for the state or a private company)

[tomrod]

The other comment thread walked through the UK example as well. American insurance is over priced.

[timy2shoes]

> Socialize healthcare as it is forcing all sorts of market distortions

I don't understand how you come to this conclusion. Can you explain?

[morkalork]

It makes sense with some extra punctuation: Great. Socialize healthcare. As it, is blah blah.

If you want even cheaper car insurance, you can even go beyond socialized healthcare. You can have socialized car insurance! Or in some cases a hybrid system where you insure your vehicle but not all trauma and damage to the other party. But I don't think Americans would be a-okay with seeing a government employed doctor when they make their injury claims. Even if outcomes are better than a purely private system.

[margalabargala]

If a large portion of the cost of auto insurance is to pay for potential injuries to someone that you hit, then we can conclude 1) single-payer healthcare would significantly lower the cost of auto insurance, and conversely, 2) the lack of single-payer healthcare is a significant contributor to the current state of auto insurance markets/pricing.

[SoftTalker]

No, because injury claims also include lost income, compensation for disability, pain and suffering, etc. not just medical expenses.

[timy2shoes]

I completely agree with your assessment and logic, but the parent posted suggested that socialization of healthcare (e.g. ObamaCare) is contributing to auto rates. That I don't understand.

[margalabargala]

Looking again, I think their comment can be parsed in multiple ways.

> Socialize healthcare as it is forcing all sorts of market distortions in unrelated markets

I interpreted that as a call to socialize healthcare, not a description of market effects that "socialized healthcare" has to the extent that exists in the US.

[tomrod]

Your interpretation of what I posted is correct. My apologies for the lack of clarity. Comment has been edited.