[fl7305]

> That is reason why women got voting rights in 1970 in Switzerland, they were worried about conscription.

Not sure how that translates into "a huge opposition to conscription on ethical grounds"?

> Israel has a huge orthodox religious community that opposes conscription

They're 13%, is that right? Is 13% "huge"?

And do they oppose it for everyone on ethical grounds? Or just for themselves, while they'll happily let the rest take care of the national defense using conscription?

[Throw73747]

I am not going to talk about Switzerland.

Orthodox in Israel are excluded from military service. But there are settlers... Ethical my bum.. also there are like 20% Arabs... You should really spend some time in there, crazy country.

[fl7305]

> Orthodox in Israel are excluded from military service.

I was curious about Israel, so I did some quick Googling:

The orthodox in Israel are not excluded from forced military service. Their service can be postponed while they are in religious school. It is also shortened.

They are not against conscription on ethical grounds. They just think that religious studies are a lot more important. They also do not want to mix with the general population since they do not like their way of living.

So if they were forced into conscription where they could do a lot of religious studying together with their own people, they wouldn't have much against it.

Did I get anything wrong here?

> You should really spend some time in there, crazy country.

That's a ringing endorsement if I ever saw one. Have you considered becoming a travel agent? ;)

[Throw73747]

They were excluded until very recently. I think details are not relevant, but look how long they do studies, dodging ratios, where they serve, extremism, tax payments... It really does not belong here.

My point is that Israel is really not good example of a country with "happy conscription".

Israel is actually good pace to visit now. Cheaper than usually, far less tourist, stay on coast (Haifa and Tel Aviv) avoid religious sites. I am going there in October for two weeks.

[fl7305]

> They were excluded until very recently.

Not according to my research. Their service was delayed and shortened, but in general it was not excluded altogether. And again, they are not against conscription on ethical grounds.

> not good example of a country with "happy conscription"

I do not claim that conscripts are happy while they are forced to serve.

My claim is that among the top 10 happiest countries, many of them have conscription. So conscription does not equal an unhappy society.

Also, while we complained to no end during our conscription time in the army, most older swedes who served look back at their forced military service with a lot of positive feelings.

Younger people who did not serve roll their eyes when the older guys start reminiscing about their army time. You can see them thinking "shut up already" :)

Of course there are people with your level of dislike of conscription, but I haven't met very many of them in Sweden.

> Israel is actually good pace to visit now.

Oh, I thought you were kidding. It has a lot of historic sites I'd like to see, but it'd be nice if the whole region was a lot calmer before I start thinking about going there. Not holding my breath on that one...

[Throw73747]

I have to be a bit careful what I say here.

Orthodox have certain political views, that do not mix well with majority of liberal population. They claim ethical/non-military grounds when it comes to conscription, but are very strongly opinionated in other areas.

And look who is doing actual fighting in Gaza. There are are like 5000 US Navy seals. Conscript army can not even man fortified bunkers!

> My claim is that among the top 10 happiest countries,

I read Israel faces genocide, that does not sound very happy!

If you look at some stats, North Korea is doing pretty well, they have like 40% gender equality or whatever.

I would really recommend you to travel a bit. You obviously do not have much experience (stats, research). Israel is quite ok now.

If you want good safe place for "cultural shock", Jeddah would be good, nice corrals...

[fl7305]

> Orthodox have certain political views, that do not mix well with majority of liberal population. They claim ethical/non-military grounds when it comes to conscription

Their "ethical grounds" is that religious studies and keeping themselves separate is more important than military service, not that conscription is ethically wrong in itself. If they had their own country, they'd happily use conscription.

So you can make all kinds of arguments why this group is the worst. Their views doesn't support your claim that there is a "huge opposition to conscription on ethical grounds in Israel".

> Conscript army can not even man fortified bunkers

That's like saying child labor is wrong because children have a poor sense of quality. Ok, true, but that's not why I'm against it.

And of course I don't agree that the conscript armies in the nordic countries are inherently much worse than professional armies.