[mpaco]

> Replacing traditional speakers with piezoelectric transducers will allow devices to be much thinner.

I appreciate the fact that this technology could make mobile devices more durable because it has less moving parts, but I don't feel going any thinner than what's currently available is desirable from an ergonomics perspective. I just don't feel as comfortable holding a phone that's 7mm thick, or less.

And I certainly don't think it's worth the risk of it folding in my pocket.

[addicted]

The possibility of it being thinner simply means you can maintain the current size and increase battery size.

I think phones are obviously too thin already as evidenced by the thick covers covering nearly every one of them.

[audunw]

The covers is the very reason they need to be thin. Seems circular perhaps. But you really don’t want the bare metal/glass to be the thing taking a hit when you drop your phone. And lots of people like to personalise their phones with those covers.

So having phone+cover being the ideal size is realistically what will be best for most people.

That may leave the bare phone a bit on the thin side, but that’s a necessary trade-off.

You can also combine phone and wallet and still have it be a nice and reasonable thickness.

[devsda]

> The possibility of it being thinner simply means you can maintain the current size and increase battery size

May be but I think they will utilize the space for more sensors and optical camera equipment.

Compared to early 2010s the current average smartphone battery capacity is 3-4x higher.

Do we know how much of that is due to increase in average battery volume vs increase in energy density?

[spookie]

From an empirical assessment, volume has gotten bigger. Part of it stems from the devices getting bigger as well. However, I would wager energy density hasn't improved as much as the increase in volume, given that devices got bigger first.

I think this can also be corroborated by the fact that there are less and less small smartphones options. And while there are some, they're plagued by poor battery performance. See latest iPhone SE.

There's indeed, by this logic, reason to believe less space taken by other components lead to better battery life by the sheer volume available as a result.

[Tagbert]

For me the reason for the covers is not to prevent bending (a problem with too thin devices) but to prevent scrapes and cracks when the phone falls.

[enobrev]

Agreed. Although I took the cover off my old Samsung (s10e) about 18 months ago in the hopes for an excuse to replace it. I've dropped it and banged it on things and other such random potential damage so many times and there's barely a dent or scratch anywhere.

I'm impressed and annoyed. That said, I have very much enjoyed not having a cover. It feels so much better in the pocket and in the hand

[PawgerZ]

It always surprises me how seemingly indestructible and simultaneously fragile phones are.

I've broken two phones in my life; both of them had on robust cases. The first time, I knocked my phone off of my desk at work. It fell three feet to the carpet and shattered the screen. The second time, I missed my pocket and dropped the phone 2-3 feet. Completely shattered the back glass and sent a hairline crack through the screen.

I've dropped my phones so many other times, in much worse ways (sometimes with no case), yet in these two instances they break. I'm almost at the point of not using cases, but I know my anecdotal experiences don't reflect reality.

[Tagbert]

The mechanics of a drop are complex. The phones are designed to distribute the forces and survive most falls, but there are ways that the phone can fall where it is very hard to prevent damage. Falls on the corners or edges tend to just scratch the case. Falls on the back or face tend to shatter the glass. That means that in 8 out of 10 basic fall scenarios the phone has a good chance of surviving. Of course with sufficient height and impact, the structure cannot diffuse the energy enough to avoid severe deformation and breakage. For face plants, just a tiny rock can focus the energy and crack a screen that might otherwise survive the fall.

External cases provide protection from scratches and scrapes in low energy falls. That is most of what I’ve experience so I put on a thin case for that. An external case can provide some cushion to dissipate some of the impact energy to reduce the change of deformation. That is where thicker is usually better. For me, that scenario is less likely so I don’t bother with thick cases.

[Izkata]

For me it is to prevent bending and because the material on the back of my phone bothers my skin.

When I did my last upgrade the box was damaged and the phone bent at about a 20 degree angle. Made me a bit nervous about how sturdy they actually are.

[samstave]

Ive had every iPhone since launch upto the 8s+

I have dropped and broken so many fn iphones - once, I had just picked up a new phone and went to dinner where the restaraunt had concrete floors... I had that phone for ~6 hours.

I dropped it and broke it because I hate cases, and the iphone is so damned slippery.

I berated Jony Ive (I sent him an email) and told him that the lack of a lanyard bracket was BS. (This was also when I was flying a lot to asia, and so many phones had lanyard brackets...

I think Ive gone through ~25 phones? I have a stack of several right here: https://i.imgur.com/QvODonY.jpeg - plus the one I took the pic with...

I think I have several more strewn about my tech graveyard...

What sucks is that I have called phone repair places what to do with them all, and they say they are all worthless.

"Throw them out"

I just feel bad for all those kids in China who died at the assembly line to make these worthless products requiring suicide nets. (Thats not a joke, that is really fn sad that people at Flextronics (who use to build a bunch of stuff for Lockheed as well) just killed themselves.)

(Oh and I had a MBP that was under recall for battery fires, CATCH fire in my bed when I was asleep...

It was also an AirBNB and I woke upto my MBP on fire.

Apple held it for two months, then even though the machine was under recall for fire, refused to replace it telling me I had the option to buy a new machine at full price.

They claimed that a moisture sensor went off so warranty (and recall) void.

it took them TWO months to make that statement and try to get me to buy a new machine.

[lex-lightning]

you are specifically the person who should get a case. Or wipe your hands or something? This is an absurdly high rate of breaking phones. no one here has any incantations or runes that will safeguard you from physics

[junaru]

Or you could make them even thinner and accelerate sales of new devices as you inevitably bend them and its cheaper to just buy a new one.

[mulletbum]

This makes it sound like companies like Apple and Samsung are not trying to increase battery life, which is absolutely untrue.

[toastal]

Shaving so low was the excuse for removing the beloved 3.5 mm headphone jack ubiquitous most portable electronic devices. I’d rather folks had room for good headphones than a screen-sized speaker.

[stetrain]

I believe Apple said it was more about using that space for other uses, not making the device thinner.

Almost every iPhone since then has gotten thicker with a larger battery.

[graphe]

I hated it at first but having wireless headphones is awesome. I haven’t missed my wired headphones at all since I got galaxy buds+ with 11hr per use. I tried the newer better sounding buds 2, the low battery life is atrocious (4hr).

You can always use a BT repeater for headphones too, I went that route at first along with dongles and gave up. I miss it but I moved on, reluctantly.

[wongarsu]

The thing is, you were already able to use wireless headphones on phones with a 3.5mm jack. Removing it didn't add new capabilities, it only removed a feature many people liked in a thinly veiled ploy to get everyone to buy Airpods. Sure Airpods are great, but my wired headphones were great too, and in many ways better.

[The_Colonel]

Headphone jack represents an opportunity cost - including it means you can't use the volume for e. g. baterry, camera or simply nothing (making the phone smaller).

[user_7832]

I don't think that's happened in practice. If anything in recent times the smallest phones are getting bigger, and truly small phones (like the iPhone minis) no longer exist.

[The_Colonel]

So you think that the space which was previously occupied by headphone jack is now a hole of empty space within the phone?

I don't believe that, either the space is used for something else, or the phone is in some way made smaller.

[toastal]

Sony’s Xperia line is some of the smallest & lightest flagship phones while having a headphone jack and a microSD slot (& can unlock unlike Zenfones) so I don’t think these are good excuses.

[The_Colonel]

Does microSD slot and headphone jack take volume? If yes, this volume can be used in a different way.

[kiba]

I have hearing aids. They double as my earphones. Why would I want plug in headphones?

Granted, this is a weird edgecase.

[user_7832]

It doesn't apply to you, but it applies to 99% of earphone/headphone users.

[graphe]

We’re having 2 different conversations.

I’m talking about adapting to new phones, you’re talking about why headphone jacks are good.

[bheadmaster]

You're not having 2 different conversations, he's raising a perfectly good point.

Your argument is "new thing is good".

His argument is "new thing existed before old thing was removed, so removing old thing didn't make new thing better".

[justsomehnguy]

It's always amusing to hear 'but now when I was deprived of 3.5 I'm happy with a wireless headphones!'.

I used a wireless headphones when some of HN visitors didn't even exists, I have a plenty of experience with them. No, I'm not happy with wireless headphones, partially because my old-style wired headphones works always. Not just 'always, though sometimes I need to re-pair them, or find the charging case for a super-mega-fast-charge for 10 minutes, or find the left one despite I swear I placed them both in the case' but always.

[krisoft]

If we are entertaining each others with stories I can tell you about the pains of untangling wired headphones or the fact that all my headphones failed due to a "contact" issue the jack developed. Or the number of times my headphones got yanked because I was walking with them on and the cables got entangled in something.

Or how with wired headphones one needs to remove to be able to step away from the computer, while with a wireless one I can keep listening anywhere around my home.

[toastal]

There are ways to wrap cables so they don’t tangle. Many IEMs & hearbuds come with a carrying case like a Bluetooth pair might (without fire hazard of batteries). Wrapping up cables ‘correctly’ plus keeping them stored tightly in a container is a recipe for no tangles. If I know you are going to moving up & down often, I opt for using my pocket DAP that can support two-way Bluetooth transmission + USB DAC so I can freely move around & unplug--but more often I just replug them into my phone or DAP when doing another task, then the plug IEMs back into my laptop or audio interface when I return.

I had used a pair of wireless earbuds for a year & I can’t tell you the number of calls I had to cancel early due to listening to music earlier & now not having enough charge. I’ve also had botched firmware upgrades & an app with trackers needed to installed just to get those updates, something analog didn’t deal with. The technology is far from the total-upgrade you are pitching--especially when all your digital apparatuses have a jack, the analog convenience of pulling the plug from one to the next without the fiddling of Bluetooth menus.

[justsomehnguy]

> about the pains of untangling wired headphones

First world problems. Also they still can work, so in a pinch you can just insert them tangled.

> all my headphones failed due to a "contact" issue the jack developed

If all your headphones are susceptible for this then it looks like the problem is not in the headphones.

> Or the number of times my headphones got yanked because I was walking with them on and the cables got entangled in something.

Yep, they are wired.

> one needs to remove to be able to step away from the computer

Yes, they are wired. Are you annoyed what you need to stand up to step away from computer?

Wired headphones has some disadvantages compared to wireless ones, but the problem lies again in what Apple said 'fuck you consumers you will eat it and ask for more', consumers ate it and asked for more and idiots followed the suit, too.

You know, BT (if we are talking only about phones) headphones are an old thing, 20 years if we count only BT EDR. All^W Most of those years anyone could choose the tech they like more. But now Apple fanbois and you tell me what I need to ditch my wire headphones, because wireless are working better for you. No, it doesn't work better for me. More so, I tried it multiple times and I can surely tell what it's not not just as an opinion, but backed by my actual experience.

And I love what I can forget my headphones for a month and they would still work even if I forgot to charge them the last time I used them, lol.

NB: the last year I smashed my phone up to the broken screen, first time in my life (Ericsson A1018 doesn't count, it was only a battery cover clip). I smashed it not because it was laying on the table while I stepped away with my headphones already inserted both in the phone and my ears, but because I was quite drunk (or more like drunk AF) and didn't noticed that. Is this a table problem or my phone problem (hey, only 1+ meter high!) or it's my problem? While it wouldn't happen with a wireless ones, the common sense says it's not the headphones' fault.

[2024throwaway]

> First world problems.

In a thread about modern cellphone technology is _hilarious_.

[krisoft]

> First world problems.

Second actually. But not sure how cold war allegiances have anything to do with the topic in question.

> Yes, they are wired.

That is the point. If we treat the downsides of one technology as given and baseline then of course the other technology will look deficient compared to it. But if we look at the pros and cons of both technologies we might see why people prefer one to the other.

> Apple said 'fuck you consumers you will eat it and ask for more', consumers ate it and asked for more and idiots followed the suit, too.

Not really classy calling people idiots. Especially when you are just chatting with someone who is taking the point of view you are calling idiotic.

> you tell me what I need to ditch my wire headphones,

Done no such a thing. You do whatever you want to and I'm wishing you the best with it. I'm merely explaining why I prefer my wireless headphones. You know, just comparing notes on existence among fellow travellers.

> I love what I can forget my headphones for a month and they would still work even if I forgot to charge them the last time I used them, lol.

I will give you that. That is a bummer. I walked today to the shop an wanted to listen to my DnD podcast and my headphone announced that it is running low on battery. I was worried it will cut out on me and I will have to wait before I can learn how the intrepid heroes deal with the nightmare king. Luckily it kept working for the walk. But yeah that is a bummer.

[user_7832]

While wireless headphones do have some convenience, it's not necessary to lose a 3.5mm jack to use them

[BriggyDwiggs42]

My car is from 2013 so its bluetooth doesn’t work, which has caused hours and hours of annoyance over time as the phone dies on long trips or the fragile dongle breaks. I would much prefer to have the option when i purchase the phone rather than having apple’s vague, utterly useless futurism shoved down my throat.

[htrp]

> I tried the newer better sounding buds 2, the low battery life is atrocious.

Or you could have wired that last as long as your phone battery does.

[sandworm101]

>> having wireless headphones is awesome. I haven’t missed my wired headphones at all since I got galaxy buds+ with 11hr per use.

No. Wireless buds are evil. They get lost. They loose battery life over time, usually asymmetrically. And then there is the horror of "pairing" Bluetooth devices without a proper interface, holding buttons down and such. I love my Sony over-ear noise cancelling headphones, but when away from my desk I opt for wired devices every time.

[ToucanLoucan]

Honestly I would've agreed with you wholeheartedly at the time they took away the jack, but several years on, I'm good with it. I've owned both the original AirPods and the original PowerBeats and now have a Sony WX headset for when I don't need buds. I've lost one... I left it on the hood of my car, unfortunately, my own damn fault and I was able to get a replacement ordered from Apple. Apart from that, never lost em, and in the odd event I forget to charge them, putting the powerbeats at least on a USB lead for about 5 minutes will get me roughly 70% charge into both beats, even if the case is dead, which is enough for several hours of playback time.

I thought I would miss it, but I genuinely just don't give a shit about the lack of audio jack.

[scarface_74]

Horror of pairing? You mean you don’t just open your case, click a button on one of your devices and it’s not automatically paired to all of your devices connected to your login?

[jayknight]

My problems with bluetooth pairing tends to be with bluetooth speakers and cars. Cranking up the car and all of a sudden being on the phone with whoever my wife (in the house) is on a call with is pretty weird.

[HideousKojima]

Also my car prioritizes connecting to my phone even though my wife is usually the "DJ" on a drive. And disconnecting my phone after we've already started driving means my wife has to get my phone out of my pocket/lap and turn off Bluetooth since the car offers no simple way to do so other than outright unpairing my phone.

[scarface_74]

Yeah Thad’s definitely a thing. Reason #3462 I won’t buy a car that doesn’t support CarPlay

[sandworm101]

"automatically paired" = waiting a random 5/10/15 seconds before all three devices agree to talk to each other. Then one of the three gets angry at the other two and I end up listening to music in my left ear as the little girl in my right ear says "pairing" and "disconnected" every few seconds.

[scarface_74]

That’s why I have AirPods (expensive) and Beats Flex (disposable $69). Those aren’t issues I deal with between my iPhone, iPad, Mac, AppleTV and Apple Watch…

[graphe]

You sound emotional. Wired headphones are sometimes cheaper and may sound better. They are not immune to loss, asymmetry, or horrors such as pulling your phone when it’s snagged and causing your phone to drop.

[mulletbum]

People like to complain, that is why this is still a complaint.

There is only one situation where wired is needed: Charging and Listening at the same time.

Otherwise, people can still use wired headphones all they want, especially now with USB C headphones. Even charging and listening at the same time can just be done with a splitter.

The premise is just a talking point because people want to use AUX. Well I still want to use VGA, doesn't mean they should be putting them on video cards.

[nirvdrum]

Off the top of my head, here are some reasons people still want a headphone jack:

* Invested in quality audio equipment that they'd like like to continue using without a crappy dongle

  *  Bluetooth dongles don't have the same level of integration that EarPods do, for instance (e.g., button presses don't work the same way)
  * Lightning or USB-C headphone adapters are easy to lose track of
  * Lightning or USB-C headphone adapters are awkward sticking out of your phone and risk breaking the port

* Dislike the environmental impact of trashing perfectly fine equipment

* Dislike like the environmental impact of moving to a model of disposable equipment with non-replaceable batteries

* Tired of the inconvenience of dropping wireless ear phones and not being able to find them (e.g., this happens frequently on flights¹)

* Weary of dealing with Bluetooth issues (e.g., my AirPod Pros randomly disconnect from my iPhone with regularity and I have to click multiple things to switch from my phone to my work laptop)

It's fine if these don't apply to you, but they're a little more substantive than the Luddite hand-wringing you suggest.. And for them the trade-off to get a slightly slimmer phone wasn't worth it. That's not to say there aren't advantages to wireless headphones, but supporting one doesn't mean having to preclude the other.

¹ -- https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/16uuyse/...

[ozzmotik]

another reason, namely the reason that I specifically do not use wireless headphones:

due to the nature of wireless communications, real time audio is effectively impossible and as such there is almost always some amount of noticeable latency when performing tasks that rely on real time audio (eg music production). a little of latency is okay sometimes but the amount that wireless devices introduce is typically on the offer of maybe 100-200ms and when you're trying to play a section or some such it makes it damn near impossible to hit a note on the mark you're aiming for.

[graphe]

Your comment is actually probably one of the most relevant ones, I was thinking who cares? You're not producing music on your phone.

On long calls, I will have delayed audio or glitches, sometimes from facetime, or the network but because of your comment I tried to use the speaker and it was better. I'll try disconnecting them occasionally thanks to your comment. Thanks!

[tzs]

> Invested in quality audio equipment that they'd like like to continue using without a crappy dongle

They likely can get better audio with a dongle.

All audio sources on a phone are digital. When you use headphones with a built-in jack the analog outcomes comes via a DAC and amplifier built into the phone.

When you use a Lightning or USB-C dongle the DAC and amplifier are in the dongle.

If the former case you are forever limited to the quality of the DAC and amplifier built into the phone. In the latter case there are higher end options available.

[toastal]

In 2024, most built-in DACs on a phone costing more than $200 new (so not picking bottom-barrel parts) is going to be of similar quality from a human-perception perspective. If anything a cheap dongle is more likely to have a PoS DAC. And even still, a lot of DACs will suffice for like an audio cast & provide a lot of convenience, but that wouldn’t prevent you from using a dongle DAC for a difference audio setting--even with the dongle’s downsides.

[wkat4242]

The thing is that Jack headphones are so ubiquitous. When you forget your plugs or the battery is dead you can just grab a wired set for 3 bucks.

Forgetting doesn't help with adaptors which aren't really standardized, especially the passive ones. And the active ones are expensive..

My work phone still has a jack plug. I don't use it much but the times I do use it I'm really in need of it because I don't have anything else to use.

[graphe]

I often use my Bluetooth headphones when my phone is charging, often in the next room. ;)

[mrbigbob]

i agree that there is no need to make devices thinner but i think that companies themselves have finally realized that they cant make devices really any thinner without some serious compromises in thermals, battery life, or both

i personally wouldn't mind shoving even more battery in the area where the speaker is or adding more heat sink especially on the higher end ones

[hshsnisnsi]

Making phones thinner, and hence more expensive is in some way pointless. Almost everyone gets a $20 plastic case and adds about 3-5mm to the thickness anyway. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just manufacture bulkier phones with more features like ports and which are sturdier so you don't need a case?

[notamy]

> Almost everyone gets a $20 plastic case and adds about 3-5mm to the thickness anyway.

It’s not necessarily just about protection, it’s also about personalisation of the exterior beyond what the manufacturer provides.

[QuadmasterXLII]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with "folding in my pocket." My understanding is that the current push for thinness is about getting a folding phone into that 7mm optimum

[Izkata]

My wallet is about 25mm thick. If a folding phone is going to reduce its width/length, I think I'd want the folded thickness to be around the same as my wallet so I can stack them in my pocket without one slipping past the other.

This is how I used to carry my flip-phones, which were around that thickness which closed.

[interpol_p]

I have been using an iPhone 14 Pro. It's thick, I think I got used to it?

Recently someone handed me an old Samsung Galaxy S7 to use for testing. It was a revelation: I wanted and dearly missed having a phone that thin. I really hope someone pushes for thinness again. I miss the iPhone 6 (Edit: a big part of this might be down to the weight, the squared off edges, and the enormous camera bump)

Same thing with laptops. I updated from a MacBook Air M1 to a MacBook Pro 14". The 14" is fast enough to justify its bulk — but barely. Every time I pick up the Air it feels effortlessly portable, when I grab the MacBook Pro it just does not feel thin and light enough

[Synaesthesia]

That's why I like the non-pro iPhones, they're significantly lighter. I believe Apple fixed that with the Titanium 15 pro though.

And yes the Galaxy S21-24 are impressively light too.

[gmuslera]

The trend of using them instead of the credit card may speak of some sort of convergence beyond functionality.

And they are already foldable, so in your pocket they may count as 2x its unfolded thickness.

[causi]

I miss phones with curved backs. Thinner on the sides than in the middle, I mean. They were so much more comfortable to hold than today's square slabs.

https://www.tmonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/htc10side...

[phh]

No worries there. Despite all the incredible technologies evolution we've got, smartphones are getting wider and thinner every year, to pack more and more.

I think thinnest smartphones era was around 2014-2016 when thin was touted as a feature. But then thin feature phones were hype in 2004, so maybe there is a 10 years cycle of going back to thin.

[EGreg]

Why not? Let's make phones you can't actually see, so they can be wearable. Why hold them? The screen and sound can be simply projected into your eyes. It can be personalized for you as an immersive experience.

[russfink]

Just get one tatooed on your arm.

[hardlianotion]

I'd love to watch an upgrade in progress.

[hinkley]

I think I still may have a scar on the top of my foot from the time I got a pressure cut from dropping the old tapered-edge iPad on my foot. Landed corner first.

Thin metal, as Elon Musk is about to discover with the Cybertruck, is basically a dull knife.