[Stephen_0xFF]

I think the crux of the issue is our brains looking to be occupied with easily digestible content. I removed Facebook a while ago but then replaced it with Reddit and X. I quickly removed them, but then it was like my brain was looking for something similar and I was on Neighbors and Telegram groups for a while. So I removed those too, but now I'm on HN more. I tell myself I would rather be working, and that working is more beneficial to me in the long run, but for some reason, it quickly opens a tab to HN when I'm stuck or tired. Rewiring my brain is harder than I imagined.

[dstroot]

“Why, exactly, are we rendered so uncomfortable by concentrating on things that matter — the things we thought we wanted to do with our lives — that we’d rather flee into distractions, which, by definition, are what we don’t want to be doing with our lives? When you try to focus on something you deem important, you’re forced to face your limits, an experience that feels especially uncomfortable precisely because the task at hand is one you value so much.”

— Oliver Burkeman, Four Thousand Weeks

[SketchySeaBeast]

I don't have an inspiring quote for it, but you can't focus on "things that matter" all the time, and often the things that matter that you can effect by thinking about them at that moment aren't that many. Yes, you can always be learning something new, but does learning for learning's sake actually matter?

[xedrac]

This is why I love playing chess, reading fantasy books, and gardening... because they don't matter, and I'd rather spend my idle time doing those things than being glued to my phone.

[SketchySeaBeast]

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do as well. Less time on the phone, more time reading novel whose style and substance I enjoy. Reading isn't something that "matters", but I find one more fulfilling.

[devilbunny]

Books and chess amuse.

Gardening makes the world a more beautiful place. You're right that in the long term, it doesn't matter, but when you walk outside and smell a gardenia...

[j4yav]

Does he get to an answer in the book?

[colecut]

The last sentence looks like an answer to me.

[schneems]

I’ve always dreamed of a social app that frog boils my brain to something useful. Like imagine mastodon, but posts start gradually transition to duolingo questions or paragraphs of a book I’m reading on kobo.

My worry is that I would stop using the app in the same way I don’t open an ebook by default when I’m bored.

[djhn]

Needs to be a feature built into the phone OS.

Start out chuckling to yourself reading tweets at 10am but after doing that for more than 5 minutes the feed starts morphing into your email inbox. That email you were dreading to open? Yeah well too late, you’ve started reading it now. Thank me later.

Come back from lunch and click on that catchy looking video of Primeagen reacting to yet another one of those articles that reads like hundreds of articles before it? Three minutes in he switches over to the terminal to prove a point about how anyone should be able to do a bubble sort except instead of vim it’s 3brown1blue sneaking in a lesson on the Bursuk-Ulam theorem.

It’s 8pm and you had to reply to a whatsapp message you received from your brother. While you’ve got your phone out you might as well catch up on what your friends have been up to on instagram. Except after 2 minutes the feed starts showing you your own past snaps of your kids and spouse! May as well stop staring at your phone and actually talk to them seeing as they’re in the same room.

[kossTKR]

This is brilliant. Please someone make this!

[vinceguidry]

I wish it were possible. But that would require all sources of information to have the same basic structure. It would be impossible to build for the same reason RSS failed.

[euroderf]

Sounds doable. Give it a year or two.

[vonjuice]

If you stopped using the app and didn't replace it with social media that would be a good outcome, if it improved your habits to the point of doing something creative or productive instead.

[orzig]

Having gone through the same cycle, I've done some amount of acceptance. HN is least bad, as long as I don't get sucked into writing comments (oops). The total amount of time I 'waste' is really not huge, so I try not to stress about getting it to 0. YMMV, but worth considering.

[keanebean86]

I did a detox a few years ago. Just HN and maybe some Google news. Eventually I went back to reddit and it felt so weird. It took some time to get addicted to reddit again because it just wasn't as interesting. I really need to detox again because this stuff has ruined my attention span.

[chippy]

Perhaps we need to identify a substitute before quitting a certain thing? Something pleasurable and beneficial (not work). Like reading a book.

Simply cutting something out will leave a gap where that something was. We should fill it with things of our choosing otherwise it will be filled up with something of a similar gap shaped thing!

[endemic]

Exactly -- don't resist, replace.

[boringg]

Isnt the best option to never have started using social media and creating that loop in the first place?

[zogrodea]

I think that's true generally but:

- It's possible that social media changes some peoples' lives for the better. (I do have a few friends who married people they got to know on social media, and I know the good things that have happened to me because of social media outweigh the real but less significant harms.)

- It's possible that the thing one replaces social media ("replace, don't resist") with outweighs the harm they received from social media too.

- I think we're mostly trying to work with practical solutions of how to mitigate harm instead of wishing we could change the past.

[cooper_ganglia]

The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second-best time is now.

[mdhen]

That's not an option though, is it? Not for those already affected.

[muffinman26]

I think attempting to replace the easily digestible content with work is part of the problem.

You say you're opening a tab to HN when you're stuck or tired, but should be focusing on work. Your brain is stuck and tired because it needs a break. You can train it to do something other than switch to easily digestible content when that happens, like taking a walk or stretching, but you can't completely avoid a loss of productivity when you're stuck or tired. The brain isn't 100% effective all of the time.

[jijijijij]

Personally, I found the smartphone app and web experience to be waaaaaaay more addictive than desktop browsing, because the phone is always with me.

I also found I can break away from my phone, when I delete and disable all content streams. This painfully includes podcasts and Spotify, at least initially, and I also disabled Safari all together! Otherwise it won't break the habit of reaching for your phone! Screen time limitations for apps won't do, because I am still not getting the tease out of my mind.

The idea is to have the phone for communication with contacts, do-one-thing tools, navigation and personal time and information management. And nothing else. The phone should never be the place where "something happens", where you can discover and explore. It shouldn't be more on your mind than your headphones, not more exciting than a spoon. Notifications should always ever be sent either by "myself" (e.g. calendar) or by real contacts (calls and messages).

Public transport planning/navigation, synchronized calendars and encrypted messaging are the deal breakers with "stupid phones"/no phone, for me.

Sure you can still shift your pleasure seeking to the desktop, but at least your mind won't be bothered by temptation and intrusive thoughts, when you're on a walk, sitting in the bus, in the kitchen, on the toilette, ... You will have a chance to break away.

For desktop web, maybe ublock the 'next' button on websites like HN? Hide all the internet points?

[esperent]

> This painfully includes podcasts and Spotify, at least initially, and I also disabled Safari all together!

I've done the same on Android since about six months ago. No browser, no play store, no social media apps. It's frustratingly hard and technical to remove these, and it shouldn't be. No problem for anyone here I am sure, but most people would find it too hard and give up.

Next I noted what still kept my attention on the phone and removed everything it all. My email client, ChatGPT app, all the games like solitaire. They all went.

It's great. I still spend time on HN, Reddit, and Facebook, but much, much less. And as soon as I leave my home office, I'm disconnected from all of it. I am pretty sure I will never go back.

I've replaced it with my ereader and a note taking app on my phone. Most of it went totally unnoticed and painlessly, the biggest cognitive issue I noticed has been my desire to research things when I am out and about. But I use the notes app to keep a list of things, and then I research them more fully and mindfully when I'm at my laptop.

Note that I definitely do spend more time on these websites on my laptop than I would have before. But the overall time I spend is way down, and that's good enough for now.

[Erratic6576]

I beg you to please tell me how to uninstall a web browser altogether. I was dreaming of installing GrapheneOS but nobody in the forums was able to answer my question whether it was possible to uninstall the web browser altogether in a way that renders it impossible to be installed again in a whim.

I struggled to have a pixel delivered, for the 6th time, so I ended up with an iPhone, which has screen time.

My wife despises me when I ask her to manage screen lock codes for me, so I’ll ask a kind coworker I always meet on Tuesdays, to lock the screen time in my stead.

Were that to fail, I’m kind of doomed. I ducking spent around 12 hours yesterday scrolling between NH, Reddit, messaging, and other webs.

Another option is to get a signal capable feature phone, but those are also smartphones and quite expensive and outdated. For me, it’s either screen-time lock or grapheneOS without a web browser.

I know I’m missing on the good HN content but it’s still way too engaging.

I’d only allow “nautilus” and r/science and a few other websites whose engagement-interest ratio is higher

[jijijijij]

> I ended up with an iPhone, which has screen time.

You can also disable Safari through content restrictions, which is protected by the PIN, too.

By the way, I set up the restrictions and then blindly type the PIN, so I can't remember myself. May need some tries to get in a PIN twice :D Alternatively, you could try to hold the phone sideways and use a mirror, do something else immediately afterwards.

Nobody needs to know the PIN. You fall back to your Apple ID anyway. With your ID you can set up a proper, long, long password you can hide on paper, in the attic or something. If you wanna go hardcore, you could also split the password in three long parts without noting the order. Then you'd may have to try all 6 combinations which is rather annoying. And you can have the Appstore require a password for installations too.

Usually it's enough to delay the immediate impulse long enough for your better self to gain control again :)

I would really recommend not to restrict (just) screen time. Complicated schedules will only encourage you to have legitimate reason lifting restrictions, and even low supply won't get the phone out of your mind. Phone: No fun - 24/7.

You don't need a schedule to not look at the dial pad :D

[jijijijij]

I am happy it's working for you! The key really is to make the phone holistically boring. Like, the first few times you mindlessly reach for it out of habit, when you remember there is nothing (!) for you to do, you need to feel a very sobering disappointment. That's the feeling to aim for. Sadly music is a casualty. (If anyone really needs a personal soundtrack, maybe consider local files and VLC?)

Also, whenever I am tempted to reinstall the suck, for whatever "important" or "exceptional" reason, I try to ask myself "Is it important enough to risk messing up your life? Is it really important to do this instant?", or "Is avoiding these unexpected five hours of idle boredom worth reinforcing the toxic habit, enslaving your mind again, adding to the tragic loss of lifetime?".

In regard to "research", removing all web browsing is an easier sell, if you can still look up the odd, timely (actually) important information somewhere. I keep Kiwix (for Wiktionary and Wikipedia*), Dict.cc and the Google Maps app around. Google Maps usually has more, and more up-to-date POI information, and better search results, than Apple Maps. E.g. you can find a doctor's phone number, or a store's opening hours, reliably. This covers 95% of my "look up" impulses and the remaining 5% are better done on a larger screen and with a keyboard anyway, so they get postponed to a note or reminder, same as you do. (I rarely do follow ups later, go figure...)

I guess mail and messaging really depends on your use case and social sphere. At least, I need to send emails from my phone sometimes (if only to get it done immediately).

> Note that I definitely do spend more time on these websites on my laptop than I would have before.

Yes, but it's much less reinforcing and invasive. And on the desktop you can modify those streams to tingle your dopamine receptors less. Like mentioned, ublock-ing the 'next' button, or 'related/suggested content', internet points, and so on.

---

* Yes, without the suck "content" cached, I got space for offline wikis lol...

[esperent]

> Like, the first few times you mindlessly reach for it out of habit, when you remember there is nothing (!) for you to do, you need to feel a very sobering disappointment. That's the feeling to aim for

Yes exactly! I feel like we need to start a movement here.

I did try Kiwix, but honestly I don't need any reference material on my phone unless I'm going on vacation or something. In which case I almost certainly need a browser for the trip, and that's fine.

[jijijijij]

> I feel like we need to start a movement here.

Feedicts Anonymous? Refreshotics Anonymous? ESC F5?

I guess, not the best idea to organize online :D So...

Each one, teach one?

[ericmcer]

HN is opened subconsciously while working whenever I encounter a difficult problem. Focusing is pretty easy when the road is straightforward, but the second I run into a challenge my brain tries to escape.

Not sure what that means biologically/evolutionarily.

[namaria]

It means we short circuited the reward wiring in our brains with too much 'informational sugar'. We get obesity and type-2 diabetes because of refined sugar and high-fructose corn syrup. These things were never part of our diet in evolutionary time scales. Same thing with content. Our brains are getting trained to consume low effort high dopamine content so our scales for gauging difficulty vs reward of tasks are all out of whack.

[EGreg]

It’s called curiosity

Gathering information about your environment

And also social interaction. Can’t be solitary hunter 24/7.

Men’s brains seem to be far better suited to embrace long abstract solitary activity (like math or programming) than women’s, on average and also at the extreme ends. Probably because of evolutionary psychology. But still even men have limits and need to take a break from sustained solitary activity, and socialize. Even if the actual socialization doesn’t produce any long-term deliverables, it helps center you psychologically.

Given the rise in remote work, I wouldn’t be surprised if FB/Apple hijack that to move interactions from the watercooler to the “metaverse”. I already see a lot of young men (not women btw) “wasting” hours on various Discord gamer / political voice chats.

https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Is-There-Any...

[conradfr]

Activate the noprocrast option in your HN account settings and see where you land next ;)

[nonameiguess]

For what it's worth, I think I did a reasonable job of this. I don't consume any web-based algorithmic feed content and participate in nothing interactive other than Hacker News and do not visit Hacker News every day, or even every other day most of the time. Almost never on weekends. It's really an "I'm bored at work" thing.

As others said, I had to replace these things with something else. I'm not meditative enough to just sit around with a perfectly still mind staring at the wall. For me, it was a few things. Books, first. Not hugely consistent with what they're about. First few years was mostly sci-fi and fantasy, then a year or so of non-fiction pop physics books. Right now, I'm mostly reading cooking books and learning to cook better. That's the second thing. I cook all of my own food, from scratch, and experiment a lot. That consumes quite a bit of time and it's active time. Third, music, but not algorithmic feed music. No YouTube music or Spotify recommendations. Nothing social. I'm listening to complete albums, curated either because I'm in my 40s and already know a lot of music I haven't listened to in a long time, or via human critics the same way I curated music in the 90s. Fourth, movies, but again, nothing algorithmically generated. Just like it's 1999 again. In fact, Alamo Drafthouse is doing a celebration of 1999 for its 25th anniversary. It happens to also be my and my wife's high school graduation year, so a lot of beloved movies to go see. At home, we're doing 70s. We've gotten through Easy Rider and Rosemary's Baby (yes, I know, they're 60s), Badlands, Days of Heaven, Dog Day Afternoon, and Harold and Maude. Quite a few more to go, queued up and ready, curated from prior knowledge. I've already seen most of these but my wife has not. Fourth, exercise. You can't just get off the couch and do it. I spent years building up the capacity after spending the latter half of my 30s mostly inactive due to degenerative spine problems. Started off with resistance bands and walking 6 years ago. Today, I lift for about an hour 6 days a week and then run, row, or both for cardio, anywhere from 60-90 minutes a day. Fifth, concerts. My wife and I saw Judas Priest and Dead Kennedys at the end of last year, Tool last week, and we've got Madonna, Social Distortion and Bad Religion, Ministry, Echo and the Bunnymen, and Slowdive scheduled over the next few months. We usually travel to a multi-day festival or two each year as well but haven't decided which yet for this year. This is also curated from prior knowledge. I guess I miss out on whatever is hot right now, but oh well, there was plenty of great music already out there in 1995 and plenty of these acts still tour.

All in all, this gives me goals, accomplishments, scheduled events, social interaction with a real, non-anonymous person I actually know who is physically present, had made me far healthier, more fit, and better looking, and the quality of my entertainment, though I suppose less "addicting," is much higher.

The downside is this is expensive, but it probably doesn't have to be if you actively bargain-hunt, stay local, work out at a gym instead of buying your own equipment, and eat worse than me. Probably many people on the Internet would say another downside is I'm not very tuned in. It's an election year and I have no clue what any candidates are doing, saying, winning races, and I probably won't vote. Oh well. I'm sure the world will do about the same as it would have done if I didn't exist, which is fine. I'm not that important and neither are you.

Edit: I guess it's worth adding none of this involved or required getting rid of my phone. The phone is, in fact, quite useful. I listen to my albums on it. I buy movie tickets and concert tickets through it and they're delivered to the phone. I buy airline tickets and keep them on the phone. I keep my recipes, log my food, log my workouts, and map my runs on the phone. The local train system sells and keeps passes on a mobile app. There is nothing wrong with phones per se. Just don't let these apps gamify shit for you. Don't opt into social features. Don't create an account if they don't force you to. Disable all notifications. Don't worry about what other people are reading, where they're running, what they're eating. Just worry about yourself. Don't have or use any pure social apps. No algorithmically-generated content feeds. Read full-length novels, watch full-length feature films, and listen to complete albums. Force yourself to exercise at least a medium-term attention span. You don't need a change of theme every 40 seconds.